Bianoic

I really like The Athletic for its content. Always very interesting articles and the guy who follows Rams is really good, Ryan Conway I think

But you get the impression that there is this huge chasm between the very knowledgeable journalists and ‘ Head Office’ back in the States, I presume.

Unfortunately, once again, the good done by the people at the sharp end, the journalists, is being completely undermined by the sharp practices of those responsible for generating sales, and those who willingly allow them to, at Head Office back in USA

I was astonished to find that my bank account had been charged £60 this week for ‘subscription renewal ‘ :

• I had never asked for my subscription to be on automatic renewal
• I received no advance warning that my subscription was going to be renewed
• The charge was made at the same rate I subscribed for last time, £60. The Athletic is currently offering new subscribers an annual cost of £30, plus a free introductory offer
• When I contacted them to say that I would be taking them to the small claims court if my money wasnt returned within 48 hours, I received the usual, gushing, USA type holding reply. They then had the temerity to e mail me the day after to ask if their virtual assistant had been successful in resolving my problem ! 

Strangely enough they reimbursed me the money before the 48 hours deadline expired

This kind of behaviour is totally unacceptable to me. 
 

Everybody loses . On principle I will never deal with these people again.
 

Just wanted to let everyone out there aware of what practices The Athletic’s sales people employ  and to ask : “why on earth do they do this kind of thing ? “

1 hour ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Well let's wait and see, eh? 

Is this one of those passive aggressive responses that @i-Ramwas warning about a little while ago ????

11 minutes ago, gfs1ram said:

Spot on Bianoic 

For example Companies could defer VAT payments from last year until April 2021. Which I think you will find a lot of Clubs did.

It looks as though we are the only Club however not to have paid it up to date in April? I believe interest of 5% is charged by HMRC ( could be wrong) if so that could be a lot cheaper than borrowing from our other sources! 

It doesn't help our embargo though!!

And you are spot on too gfs ! 

Very interesting comment about borrowing. It genuinely would not surprise me in the slightest if Mel/Stephen were actually ‘playing’ the current circumstances with HMRC to generate funding for use in other areas of the club ! Given how hardball Mel is being about everything else. 

8 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

The less aggressive chasing of debt would more likely relate to S/E sole traders and their own liability.  NIC and VAT is always aggressively chased as the repercussions to state pension can be high and if business stops trading it's a real issue. 

Sorry to drone on about this and bore people to death but both of your statements above are factually completely incorrect, from my own personal knowledge of working today with all sorts of businesses and organisations, from the very large to very small.

As you say, though, GE, interesting to try to read between the lines but lets hope the actual facts come out soon.

11 minutes ago, jono said:

But had it occurred to you that as revenues crashed we reached an agreement with HMRC, to delay and stage payments. 
The fact the the HMRC maybe happy with that and we are keeping to whatever schedule we agreed with them, hasn’t really been mentioned. The EFL have this on the charge sheet because it breaks their rules … but I want to ask, have they investigated other clubs current relationships with the HMRC or indeed any agreement we have with HMRC. 

Without any doubt at all we are either making back payments to HMRC according to an agreed schedule OR the HMRC are going to take action against us. The EFL sticking to the letter of their rules in our respect is not the same as being in do do with HMRC

It had indeed

I would be very surprised if the club hadn't entered into such an arrangement. Pretty well all businesses ( let alone football clubs)  will have done so during the lockdown and have been encouraged to do so. I suspect most clubs in the EFL have taken advantage of this option.

Your question about the EFLs approach to these other clubs, if it is such an issue to them, is correct. However, the  reason we have heard nothing from the EFL about them  is probably pretty simple :

• It would not be reasonable for the EFL to include such a legitimate arrangement as being worthy of being on its ‘charge sheet’  and so this is, in my view, a red herring - entering into a payment plan is not an issue to them at all
• What would cause an issue, however,  would be  if we were failing to stick to a previously agreed payment plan, especially if that were to happen repeatedly

Of course, all of this is conjecture. One poster made a tongue in cheek remark in the last 24 hours that the timing of the new season ticket sales may not have been entirely coincidental in the latest removal of the unpaid transfer fees from the ‘charge sheet’. Maybe it was the plan all along by Mel and Stephen that they could use the same source of cash to deal with the HMRC situation ?

11 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

I'm not sure it's a case of owing HMRC money as such.  As a business it's making none.  So it's quite likely to be penalties for non submitted accounts at companies house showing no corporation tax is due, which it seems clear the club aren't doing for some EFL related reason.  The HMRC debt might be a grand in associated penalties. If it was PAYE/NIC owed we would likely be up in court already and the magnitude would be common knowledge.

Unlikely I’m afraid GS

Even the EFL wouldn't be bothered by a sum as small as that and, anyway, the cause of those potential penalties ( non submission of accounts) is already on the EFL hit list.

We don't know when the club first started withholding Paye, NI or VAT but, even in normal times, moving from non payment to court can be (and can be made to be) a very long process, for all sorts of reasons. And in these times of covid and lockdown, it would be even longer, if at all. HMRC have been told to back off from aggressive debt chasing throughout this period of lockdown. So court action to date would have been very unlikely.

I’m afraid there is every likelihood that its paye, nic and vat not being paid over by the club

3 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Far be it from me to suggest that the EFL are a snivelling bunch of feckless trough sniffers, but is the HMRC charge really something they should be concerning themselves with? I'd have thought any sanctions relating to this particular matter should fall under the jurisdiction of HMRC themselves. Not sure they require any additional support from sherry-slurping, bungle-gibsons like the EFL, whose only claim to fame seems to be making a colossal clusterfuck of the job with which they are tasked. Seems to me that HMRC are quite capable of any required enforcement measures themselves without any such 'aid' ?‍♀️

If you cant pay HMRC then its a pretty fair bet that you are in severe financial straits and therefore are unlikely to meet other liabilities and debts as well. Its pretty well a last resort to not pay these people. The only people who don't pay are those that cant. And everybody knows this. 
So its not really a surprise that the EFL treat this as a massive red flag, I’m afraid.

Is this thread a parody ? A kind of Monty Python/Not the nine oclock news pisstake ? 

I have been in the away end manys the time - out of choice 

The idea that people on here want to claim it as some kind of conquest is astonishing

Like throwing bricks at other people somehow made them proud

Its the kind of thing 13 year old boys and girls might want to brag about and glorify

All very pathetic and sad 

4 hours ago, Steve Buckley’s Dog said:

I think you are right, I think there are a multitude of reasons why gates are down. However I do know of people not going because of ticketing issues - whether that be the ludicrous delay in selling and sorting season tickets and season ticket cards or the online only ticket sales. I also know of people trying to contact the club to resolve issues, of which I am one, and are finding communicating with the club extremely difficult - there is about a 2 week delay in replying to emails and even when they do they send a response indicating that they haven’t read or assimilated the information given to them. Phone lines at a premium rate (why? Why not a local number?) are barely manned and others on here have failed to get through, not had issues resolved or had very costly waiting times. The inability to actually speak to a person who can resolve an issue is incredibly frustrating and incomprehensible. 

Even opening it one day a week, like the clubs in the examples you have stated, would give some fans an opportunity to have problems resolved and give older supporters or those without access to technology / printers etc a chance to actually buy and pick up tickets. Making obstacles and hoops to buying a product isn’t a very smart business decision in my opinion.

I personally know of one person who can’t order/access tickets and hasn’t been able to go this season, another who doesn’t know his customer number, has never bought a ticket online and has decided it isn’t worth the hassle, another who has relied on me making an hour long drive to sort his tickets out, along with, anecdotally, quite a few others who have just given up due to the initial difficulty in buying tickets. I know personally of 4 people in dispute about their tickets, none of whom can get the matter resolved. 

The club is struggling seemingly in every way possible and if I was running it I would be doing everything I could to bring in as much revenue as possible and keep my fanbase communicated with and treated honestly and fairly.

At the moment decisions being made seem to be driving people away and disenfranchising them, which is a shame because I am enjoying watching an honest bunch of players giving their all and would much rather be focussed on that. 

Its all part of the same issue Bucko 

Mel has decided thats he's out now, he will not spend another penny if it can possibly be avoided and he does not care about any ‘collateral damage’ in achieving his aim. 

Doesn't mean to say he wont spend anything. But he wont if it doesn't add value to his situation.

It takes a certain type of character to be able to carry out and sustain this attitude. Such characters are few and far apart, but we know that Mel is one of them.

This also explains the brinkmanship being played out with the EFL and HMRC. Mel is playing his cards, not from the football clubs’ point of view, but from his and his familys point of view. If they ( the EFL and HMRC) overplayed their hands, he could easily take the administration option. And they would lose.

This is nothing new in football. The same has happened at Villa ( Lerner) , Sunderland ( Short) and Ipswich ( Evans). Three very high profile and historic clubs. 

He’s a very smart cookie, he's made his decision and lets hope he rides off into the sunset as soon as possible ! 

11 hours ago, Gladram said:

He played Premier League game in May this year.

And saved a penalty in that match

Yet another unnecessary causality on the road to Mels Magical Rams Ruin Mystery Tour 

30 minutes ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

 You realise they will spend the whole session prior to a game working tactically in and out of possession with the starting 11 don’t you?

Would you call that rocket science for a professional footballer to pick up on ?

Just now, RoyMac5 said:

Journalist.

Journalist 

Is that it ? So you take this stuff as fact ?

Hmmmm

12 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

And so when Nixon says that other Championship teams have missed transfer payments but aren't on the embargo list? ? 

If you don't complain they'll stomp on you! 

Who is Nixon ?

Genuine question - thats a baffling response Roy

11 hours ago, ram59 said:

Coming from Brum and surrounded by bluenoses, this is a big game for me.

I'd take a draw now, if offered. From what I've been told, blues are playing well atm. They have got a good youngster on loan from Man U, playing wide right and have just made a great signing with Troy Deeney coming 'home' to his boyhood club. I think that they may be the surprise team of the championship this season.

Agree. 

Fantastic win at Sheff U first game

And I really rate the manager. Not a fan by any means in his playing career.....

3 hours ago, Ravabeerbelly said:

Either way he wont return to uk until Thursday after a Wednesday night game meaning he wont train with the squad at all ahead of friday….

Come on mate, lets try the glass half full

Been playing well for us recently, got some great experience and game time playing at the highest level in the week or so before the Brum game 

Does he really need much training time before the match. I would be happy if he just had a good long kip ?!

On 02/09/2021 at 09:21, RoyMac5 said:

I think we Derby fans feel that 'they' are out to get us. To an extent that might be true but only in so far as the EFL can do us 'legally'. I think they are making sure they have got the maximum punishment allowable out of us. They know that if they look lenient towards us then other clubs will come back at them. But on the other hand if they try for more than they can 'legally' do, ie they only got £100k fine when they whinged about wanting more because their lawyers told them they had no likelihood of winning an appeal, then Mel will come back at them.

So I think they are checking what we might have done wrong in their eyes and what the maximum punishment is. Who knows maybe we passed P&S but they want to fine us for crappy accounting!  

"I think we Derby fans feel that 'they' are out to get us"

Total paranoia in my view

These people have far more bigger issues on their plate than to be harbouring a grudge against us or anyone else. And they simply don't have the time. 

They are acutely aware that they have to be doing the right thing for the EFL as a whole, and rightly so

Its such a little man attitude to complain that you are always being picked on

9 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

So who paid for the 5 star preseason getaway. On a side note I have met Mel in a hotel in Bristol and he bought me and my wife a drink ?

Premier Inn at Lowestoft  may not have helped with either player retention or recruitment, or keeping the managers on side at a crucial time. ie cost = necessity. 

10 minutes ago, 24Charlie said:

I can see this line of thought in some respects but I don’t see that cutting off an obvious revenue stream like the ticket office helps to save Mel money.

We can tell from anecdotal evidence on here that people simply haven’t been able to get tickets online or have no access to printers or just prefer dealing with a person face to face. These people haven’t gone or even haven’t renewed their season ticket because of it. Some even see it as a slight to fans. Rather than making things easy the club have made it hard, which many have seen as disrespectful to the loyal and the faithful.

 

For reference see Biden and Afghanistan .

Huge collateral damage.  But this ends here.

For Biden and Afghanistan read Mel and Derby County. Its the same kind of thing, albeit obviously on a completely different level.
 

Apologies for offending anyone by using this recent  high profile comparison, just thought it was a very good example of bloody mindedness behaviour.

6 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

That they can't afford to pay a person minimum wage for a few hours a week to open it? There's one for a start. 

I have nothing concrete to back this up TD, but my gut feeling is that, quite some time ago, Mel has decided that enough is enough and that he was no longer prepared to fund anything else at the club, other than the absolute, rock bottom, bare minimum needed to keep it ticking over. I don't think its a question of Mel not being able to afford stuff, he remains a very wealthy man. But he has decided : no more, its time to stop. After a £200m + investment has got him nowhere.

Again, I have no evidence, but I suspect that both Stephen ( the ex FD, now CEO ) and Mel went through an exercise some time back literally reviewing every possible expense in the organisation on a line by line basis. With a ruthless and determined approach to challenge each and every single cost with an aggressive attitude of : can we exist without it or can it be done in another cheaper or non-cost way ? 
 

So, from what we see as supporters  :

No ticket office - can be done online

No concourse tv and other facilities - not necessary

Reduction in back office staff other than ticket office - find another way. eg if you report bad supporter behaviour to the club, you are now directed to the police in the first instance, rather than the club taking the lead in investigating. Notice that all the signs  in the concourses and even loos ,previously encouraging fans to confidentially report unacceptable behaviour to the club, have now disappeared.

I dont know Mel, and I have never met him, but from what I have seen and heard, he certainly seems to be the rare type of individual who has the character and bloody mindedness, to carry out this kind of approach. 
 

Again, just to be clear, this is just my personal theory from what I have observed. Complete conjecture on my part. 

1 hour ago, Charlotte Ram said:

HMRC will not let the debt sit there without a payment plan, that is a fact, I have also heard that a majority of clubs in the EFL are having payment plans with HMRC as are most small/medium sized companies in the UK, on VAT HMRC are giving up to 12 months payment plans on 2020 2nd quarter payments, this is a definite fact based on personal experience.

You have got form for previously stating matters as fact which have subsequently been demonstrated to you to be nothing of the sort.

And you have implied that you have an experience in finance matters that makes you something of an expert

Yet you have been proven to be wrong on some of the most very basic of fundamentals that exist in the financial world

So not only is your credibility questionable, to say the least, you are also proving the old saying that “ a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing”

2-0 up thanks to Kane and the commentator says that 3 points for England

With 30 minutes to go ??

12 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Like others have said I was a little surprise Ball didn't make it. The thing with him though is at the academy level he was physically dominant which can make a player look more promising than they are because it quite often doesn't translate. I think the point to take away with Whittaker is he was getting the goals whilst being pretty slight even at an academy level, which is something that's fixable with time and patience.

Also mentally strong

Determined to score against his old club who let him go prematurely 

And did so 

4 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Ball had strength. I still stand by my opinion that he could have been a very reliable Championship forward. He seemed to lose the hunger for the game when we loaned him out to Coventry.

Absolutely right. Looked a superb prospect when he broke through and had a really big impact in those early days. Big as in size too. No trouble standing up to Champ defenders. Something went wrong though which is a shame.

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Agree. Plus if we'd already had better resources maybe we wouldn't have 'thrown' points away.

Not much value in ifs and buts and maybes. Wasted energy IMO

Or in looking backwards

Much better to look forwards and make the best of our situation in the future

13 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

You miss the point. He has done a great job with limited resources. But as the season goes on and the inevitable injuries etc creep in. He hasn't got much back up.

Knight, Bielik, Colin to come back still ? Three of our best players

Plus at least a couple of  really good prospects ready to come through not available before now

And January window not that far away

We are where we are, nothing we can do about it for now

Except maybe a glass half full attitude