vonwright

I should also say - as someone who has been pretty vocal in attributing a fair bit of blame to our previous owners - I don't think the EFL has covered itself in glory. The whole system stinks: football basically doesn't work, financially, outside the Premiership. There's a complete disconnect between the Prem and the rest of football. And rather than any kind of benevolent independent oversight the whole thing seems to be run on the basis of 'Yeah we all know it doesn't really work, but just don't take the **** and we will pretend it's all fine and functional'. At best the EFL is curbing the worst excesses while turning a blind eye to the underlying issues. We messed up, I can't really defend the way we were run - but it's not like we were one bad apple in an otherwise perfectly healthy batch. 

Perhaps surprising for a club that has effectively been relegated as early as November, but I sense a really positive shift in the mood of supporters since the news of the additional points deduction broke this morning.
Fans are already starting to look forward to a new set of away grounds next season, they're discussing which youngsters may break into the side and establish themselves. I've even seen a couple of posters say they may start going to matches more often.
People are starting to look forward again....
Forward to a time when it's the football on the pitch that matters. That's why we support the club. That's what we want to think about, talk about, dare to dream about.
We still need an owner to take over the club - that's crucial, of course. But I believe it's all starting to look a lot brighter. We're leaving the crappy stuff behind and returning to being a football club.
COYR ?

Also - if we are honest - the scale of losses under a straight-line amortisation policy lays bare the underlying financial situation fairly well. Our policy was based on back-ending losses and essentially pretending worthless players were worth something. Huge losses were only partially offset by a 'generous' stadium sale. The whole pattern is one of overspending compounded by overspending, dodging the final reckoning for as long as possible. And then the final dodge was to put the club in administration and leave the mess for someone else to clean up. I'm trying to work out what the plan was if we hadn't been pulled up on our amortisation and I'm struggling. 

Also - if we are honest - the scale of losses under a straight-line amortisation policy lays bare the underlying financial situation fairly well. Our policy was based on back-ending losses and essentially pretending worthless players were worth something. Huge losses were only partially offset by a 'generous' stadium sale. The whole pattern is one of overspending compounded by overspending, dodging the final reckoning for as long as possible. And then the final dodge was to put the club in administration and leave the mess for someone else to clean up. I'm trying to work out what the plan was if we hadn't been pulled up on our amortisation and I'm struggling. 

Also - if we are honest - the scale of losses under a straight-line amortisation policy lays bare the underlying financial situation fairly well. Our policy was based on back-ending losses and essentially pretending worthless players were worth something. Huge losses were only partially offset by a 'generous' stadium sale. The whole pattern is one of overspending compounded by overspending, dodging the final reckoning for as long as possible. And then the final dodge was to put the club in administration and leave the mess for someone else to clean up. I'm trying to work out what the plan was if we hadn't been pulled up on our amortisation and I'm struggling. 

Also - if we are honest - the scale of losses under a straight-line amortisation policy lays bare the underlying financial situation fairly well. Our policy was based on back-ending losses and essentially pretending worthless players were worth something. Huge losses were only partially offset by a 'generous' stadium sale. The whole pattern is one of overspending compounded by overspending, dodging the final reckoning for as long as possible. And then the final dodge was to put the club in administration and leave the mess for someone else to clean up. I'm trying to work out what the plan was if we hadn't been pulled up on our amortisation and I'm struggling. 

The 2018/19 accounts have never been submitted Pete. That is part of the reason we have been under embargo for 2 years. Mel needed to pay c£95m for the stadium or possibly more to have got round it. Or he could have sold Johnson/Butterfield/Anya/Blackman and Nugent at a bargain £15m job lot ?

Look at the losses under No. 22 of the attached https://www.efl.com/contentassets/065e21d5596b42e7a882322d3a203509/efl-v-dcfc-agreed-decision-approved-for-publication-15-november-2021.pdf
The policy change will not have effected the amount of the losses, just the timing. All our deferring of writing down the values of Johnson, Butterfield, Blackman, etc., would have hit the 2018/19 accounts hard. Long before EFL charged Derby in Jan 2020 and COVID hit us all in Mar 2020.

Glad you agree it is opinions.  The only mention of the ICAEW i can see is related to them reviewing an audit file. There is nothing to suggest they accepted the amortisation methodology (as one of our many accounting policies) or looked at it before it was implemented/post implementation as to FRS 102 compliance, and I can't see they have ever come to say they did unless you can demonstrate their statement to that effect?  They seem to have reviewed the audit file prepared by SC for one year where the new amortisation policy was in place (I.e. reviewed whether SC had properly audited the club in that year as against it's written policies, the ICAEW have not been shown to have reviewed the club's underlying accounting policies vis FRS 102). 
Here is what I think people are getting confused by from the DC at para 50 as I can't find anything else: "The fact that Smith Cooper’s audit file for a financial year since the change in amortisation policy has occurred has been picked for review by the ICAEW and approved as compliant."
There seems to be a lot of people basing their entire opinion on the DC decision/our own opinion as a club about our own policy and that of our accountants/auditors (maybe not?), whereas the LAP decided against all of them based on further evidence, and I would suggest two QCs and Lord Dyson, who sat as a Justice on the Supreme Court, are very able to form a proper opinion and come to a sound judgment on the issue without needing to be accountants - without trying to be condescending, it's what judges do, weigh up the evidence and then apply the law.  It's how the court system in England and Wales works - judges are not accountants and hear accountancy based cases all the time (as well as everything else they hear on which they are not 'qualified' experts).

Find it a bit funny reading some of the comments about the adminstrators not doing their job properly or not having the club's best interests at heart.
Kind of overlooking the point that the adminstrators only came into the club as a certain person decided to put the club into administration otherwise they wouldn't be anywhere near us in the first place.
Weird logic. 

Yeah there's an alternative universe where prime Bielik and prime Thorne are playing together in some England-style formation, and are the best midfield in the league. And if we'd have had that base it would have made a lot of our other players look a lot better. 
Was looking at the 1985/86 promotion squad and realised we had some decent players that year (and Phil Gee, too):
 
Goalkeeper
Eric Steele 
Mark Wallington 

Defender
Paul Blades 
Steven Buckley 
Rob Hindmarch 
Mickey Lewis
David Linighan 
Ross MacLaren 
Charlie Palmer

Midfielder
Jeff Chandler 
Andy Garner 
John Gregory 
Steve McClaren 
Gary Micklewhite 
David Penney 
Mickey Thomas
Geraint Williams 

Forward
Trevor Christie 
Bobby Davison 
Phil Gee 

Manager
Arthur Cox 

We can, and no doubt many will, argue about the treatment of our Club by the EFL all day, but what should not be lost today is that if Morris hadn’t put us in to Administration a couple of months ago, whilst clearly still a very wealthy man, and committed himself instead to accepting 9 points punishment for our P&S indiscretion, we would still have a Club today that had a chance, a good chance, of being in the Championship next season.
Morris bought a brilliant Club and Team, and in 6 short years ran it into the ground, and ultimately ran away to let someone else clear up the mess. 

And it might have given us some leverage, even if we weren't likely to win. 
There's clearly been a fair amount of horse-trading in order to agree a final punishment. On the one hand it's actually lower than the agreed overspend figures would suggest, but on the other we've dropped the administration appeal and (more to the point) we've accepted being pinged for multiple years and not just the first. 
I think we can all agree it's a highly unsatisfactory and opaque process and to whoever said football should be overseen by an independent body - I could not agree more, and there will never be a better example than us.
It is a real shame we couldn't have got to this point without the additional penalty of administration, because I really believe we'd have a chance of staying up, and it would be easier to rebuild from the Championship than from League One. But here we are: hopefully we can get the club sold, and the future sorted, and rebuild around young players who want to stay and become legends of the future.
 

It is an opportunity to clear the decks and start again.  Is it really disproportionate compared to others?  I can't be bothered to look up the details but the reality is that you have to move on now.   Football is a mess.  Derby County will have their day again.  A few weeks ago fans were talking about liquidation.  Some Coventry City fans even set up their own club with the thought that CCFC may go bust but fans would need to follow a phoenix club....In came Coventry United which had several promotions up the non-league pyramid.  They play in red...Not a good choice in my opinion.  
Anyway, as I have said in the past, County fans are the biggest asset. Even those who fall by the wayside will be replaced by new fans.  This is happening at Coventry and i for one thought it was impossible given how bad the fans had been treated.  The only significant difference is that your club stays in Derby...Hope you have your own ground because it causes so many problems if you don't.  

Would love to hear @The Baron's view on the final outcome as he is thought as (rightfully or wrongly) as the catalyst for this charge by the efl. 
My view is that the decision notice and the statement by the EFL shows that the agreed decision has some glaring holes in it. For example the £30M additional money couldn't be counted as income for reasons unexplained. 
The fact parry has said it is important to respect the 'principals' of FFP on behalf of other clubs (tactic admission that the rules are not well written). 
The fact that the agreement could only be made if Derby withdrew the admin appeal (these are of course technically unrelated breaches) - suggests that Derby have a reasonable case but efl unwilling to work with us on it properly. 
The fact that the efl state that the restated accounts were never actually submitted in August even though at the time they said they had - my belief is that they were submitted but in fact they weren't thought to be by the efl as being compliant with FRS102 and now the club are being asked to 'agree' that they weren't without that actually being tested in the open.
The reference to straight line amortisation in the agreement where it doesn't actually say that in the regulations (and it could have done). 
The agreement doesn't state why the breaches were only noticed years later.
The fact that the club and the efl have to agree on any further statement means that we'll never ever actually find out what happened behind the scenes. 
Seems to me this outcome is basically due to the fact that the efl have all the time in the world and Derby are running out of money. 
The EFLs actions have been vindictive and Mel/Pearce have not covered their backs enough by making things clear enough when the accounts were submitted to make our case watertight. 
INDEPENDENT REGULATOR FOR EPL, EFL AND NATIONAL LEAGUE NOW. 

Yeah there's an alternative universe where prime Bielik and prime Thorne are playing together in some England-style formation, and are the best midfield in the league. And if we'd have had that base it would have made a lot of our other players look a lot better. 
Was looking at the 1985/86 promotion squad and realised we had some decent players that year (and Phil Gee, too):
 
Goalkeeper
Eric Steele 
Mark Wallington 

Defender
Paul Blades 
Steven Buckley 
Rob Hindmarch 
Mickey Lewis
David Linighan 
Ross MacLaren 
Charlie Palmer

Midfielder
Jeff Chandler 
Andy Garner 
John Gregory 
Steve McClaren 
Gary Micklewhite 
David Penney 
Mickey Thomas
Geraint Williams 

Forward
Trevor Christie 
Bobby Davison 
Phil Gee 

Manager
Arthur Cox 

Oh yes of course, although we are yet to see Accounts for future years.  And this is the problem I have with a number of posters on here who are 'shocked', 'outraged', 'dismayed', 'perplexed', etc., etc., about the EFL's position as to why they might be considering hitting us with points penalties. Those Accounts are going to reveal the big picture which very few are seeing/wanting to see. 

I realise as fans we might not be happy about the possibility of dropping into League 1, but come on, it's not the end of the world, especially if the EFL problems are behind us and we have new owners.
Derby will still be a massive draw for the kind of players we should be looking for. There will be young hungry players coming through at another league 1 / league 2 club looking to progress to the next level (and there will be some gems if we get the right scouting team in place), Premier League club loanees looking for a taste of first team football (and if Wayne is still here I'm sure he will be able to use his contacts) and the odd experience pro who wants to give a little back (like Curtis / Jags, who let's face it aren't at Derby for the sake of their future career). We'll also still have some of the current crop of recently promoted Academy players who will have a full season of games in them.
If we went down to League 1, we'd be a very big fish, we'll still have one of the best staduims outside of the Premier League, a fantastic training ground, Grade 1 Academy, and an amazing fan base (we'd fill most away ends as well).
So whilst I don't want us to go down as much as anybody else, let's at least consider relegation as a chance to reset and regroup, rather than as a doomsday scenario.
I was there during the old Third Division days, I remember the despair at going down, but I remember even more fondly some of the best couple of years being a Derby fan during those 2 years.
Keep the faith Ramboy63.
UTR ?

Yes. We weren't playing football.

We did take stock a couple of years ago. Morris could see where it was all heading (other than COVID), and was desperate, very desperate, to sell, and to anyone. Hence his dealings with Christopher ‘The Magician’ Samuelson.
COVID actually has been helpful to us in my opinion. It led to what was needed (given the mess we were in) - a pruning of our player staff and other costs to appropriate levels, and the removal of our incompetent executive management team. We could have done without the 12point deduction penalty, but the mess was such that I can’t believe any ‘respectable’ buyer would have purchased the club from Morris. It needed astute, independent third party assessment and action, to clear the decks and give a solid base to whoever came next - both financially and via a reset with the EFL and its member clubs. I think Quantumna are doing what needs to be done to expedite a sale, and to satisfy the demands of the creditors. That is their job. Hopefully though they will also box off the overall position with the EFL, and find us an owner who will run our club like a business not like a train set.

I like your posts.  I would only be reading ‘the EFL killed my kitten’ posts otherwise.

Might be unpopular but factual. There is no doubt that we lost a significant sum during Covid but we were already on a slippery slop.  Yes Covid  exacerbated administration but unless drastic action was taken by Mel and Pearce that's where we were heading. The signing of players for £10m and £4m  sort of indicates that the they could not make those hard decisions and still wanted the dream of the prem.
We needed to take stock a couple of years ago and put in place a sustainable business plan, I don't think we did and it took an embargo for us to dramatically cut our costs

You're going to need to show some working. Our matchday income in 2017/18 was £9.1m. Our total revenue, including eg broadcast rights, was £29m. (In passing, our wages were £47m.) I'd like to know how exactly we get to £20m lost through COVID but even if we do, it's a fraction of the money we've lost or the debts we've accumulated. It's a factor obviously but it's absolutely not the sole cause of our problems.
It's absolutely fine for us to appeal the administration penalty! I'd love us to appeal and win. The club however has agreed an adjournment. Are we claiming they are doing this despite having an ironclad case? Sacrificing 12 points to bring forward an additional penalty of nine? It makes no sense. They know they are not going to win that appeal. 
You've convinced yourself we would win the administration appeal and you're now constructing a huge conspiracy theory around it. There's a much simpler explanation. The administrators know they were unlikely to win, that the finances are a mess, and that if they can leverage their minimal 'threat' of legal action to at least close off the threat of multiple points deductions when our accounts are calculated like every other club, then so be it.
If this was any other club, all this would be obvious. Since it's our club, it's painful. But it's true all the same. 

What are you including in commercial and hospitality here? Usually that would include sponsorship and merchandise, which are not 'small bits' and were not wiped out by COVID. Are you in any way considering offsetting income from people watching in alternative ways, ie online? 
In any case, say it was £20m if you like. My point was that even if this figure is correct, it needs to be looked at in context: the enormous losses Mel absorbed over multiple seasons, and the total £60m debts we apparently now have. The COVID loan that we were apparently cruelly denied by an EFL hell bent on destroying us was capped at £8.3m. That's roughly the sum we reportedly owe Cocu and his sidekicks for sacking them (in the middle of the pandemic).
Clearly a number of people need to believe that we are a victimised club, led by a visionary businessman whose masterplan of sustainable success was cruelly derailed by a combination of COVID and the evil Baron Gibson and his EFL minions. And I say that's wishful thinking, as the accounts we still have to publish for 2018/19 onwards will probably confirm. I trust the administrators are doing their best to get us back on track. 
Anyway I realise this is an unpopular view so I'm out. 

What are you including in commercial and hospitality here? Usually that would include sponsorship and merchandise, which are not 'small bits' and were not wiped out by COVID. Are you in any way considering offsetting income from people watching in alternative ways, ie online? 
In any case, say it was £20m if you like. My point was that even if this figure is correct, it needs to be looked at in context: the enormous losses Mel absorbed over multiple seasons, and the total £60m debts we apparently now have. The COVID loan that we were apparently cruelly denied by an EFL hell bent on destroying us was capped at £8.3m. That's roughly the sum we reportedly owe Cocu and his sidekicks for sacking them (in the middle of the pandemic).
Clearly a number of people need to believe that we are a victimised club, led by a visionary businessman whose masterplan of sustainable success was cruelly derailed by a combination of COVID and the evil Baron Gibson and his EFL minions. And I say that's wishful thinking, as the accounts we still have to publish for 2018/19 onwards will probably confirm. I trust the administrators are doing their best to get us back on track. 
Anyway I realise this is an unpopular view so I'm out.