Leeds Ram

22 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

I thought the same about their CB. He’s clearly not a gifted ball player and is there primarily to head and clear the ball. We were content to let him have the ball, aware that he wasn’t going to play a dangerous ball forward. But by not pressing him we simply allowed him to play a simple ball to someone else with more ability.

Very fine margins. I’m not sure we’d batter them at home but I wouldn’t fear them in the play offs.

Yeah it was very odd. I'd say based on what I saw it wouldn't surprise me if we beat them again 3-0 at home if we got them in the playoffs. Definitely potential for it to happen but we'd need to be on our game a little more than we were on saturday.

1 hour ago, VulcanRam said:

And you are free to think what you like, but unless you counted every person in the crowd I’ll go by what club execs told me, and which formed the basis for discussion in a work environment, I imagine they have a far better idea than you. Why would they lie?

I remember seeing a 16k crowd when we played Huddersfield first game of the administration season and going by what I've seen on the highlights there looked like a fair few more there than that game. The numbers the exec has cited just don't sound particularly realistic to me. Your source may not have been lying necessarily but he may also have either misunderstood some information or just been exaggerating. It happens and a lot of people do that, especially if they are frustrated in their work life. 

22 hours ago, Crewton said:

Best post I've seen on this thread 👏🏻

Thanks Crewton 🙂

1 hour ago, Ellafella said:

Absolutely cast-iron spot on @angieram. Sonny’s rehab has overtaken Warne’s thinking to the point where it sacrifices Nyambe and makes us totally lose our shape and look ultra defensive. Warne is in danger of clutching defeat from the jaws of victory with his back 3 obsession. He really needs to snap out of it. And he needs to play with a centre forward not screw up NML by playing him out of position. 

Agree with this. Given how Nyambie played when he came on, absolutely dominated that side of the pitch, it's hard to see how Warne didn't pick him. 

I went yesterday and wasn't too disappointed. I've not read through the thread so sorry if this is repeating what others have said. I thought we lacked a focal point and this challenged our attacking menace. However, once we got our 1st we easily could have had a 2nd in the next 5 mins. I think if we'd have gotten that we'd have won easily in the end. Midfield wise Adams was class with Bird and Hourihane not having great games. Bird's passing especially was pretty poor as was his decision-making when he did get forward. Gayle once he gets some service and minutes will bag goals in this division easily. Even though he was offside for the chance towards the end the way he peeled off their defence was great. 

I did question our pressing. Their big CB didn't know what to do with the ball and could not clearly pass or control it but instead of putting Laing on him to harass him into making errors we just kept off him until someone eventually broke our marking and he had an easy 5 yard pass on. It was quite infuriating to see this pattern in the second half.  We ran out of steam around the 70-minute mark and it showed. 

If we get these lot in the playoffs I fancy our chances tbh. I thought they looked really poor overall and don't have the players for the game they play. Another day we win that game 2 or 3-0 i think and at home we'll batter them.  Usually, I'm down about Warne and quite critical. Yesterday, we did shoot ourselves in the foot but if that's who are our biggest challengers we should come out on top in the long run. 

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

Puts it into perspective - I had 20 years unbroken season ticket up until Covid happened. I then held off renewing because it was far from clear as to when the restrictions would be lifted. Then I got ill and had a major op that left me unable to do anything for a year or so.

Since I've been back on my feet I've been going to maybe every other Saturday home game 

I'd sort of told myself that next season I'd get back on board with a ST, but for me and my lad it's £600 behind the goal (which I'm not a massive fan of) and £800 on the side. Not having had a pay rise in all that time, and the cost of living soaring - there's absolutely no way I can afford it now 😞

Not going to have a dig at the club - but football in general is becoming completely unaffordable for families. 

I think this is a real bind the lower leagues are in. Almost totally dependent on ticket revenue to keep the lights on means an increase in prices with the poor state of the economy means for many working-class families football is now a luxury they can't afford. Not blaming the increase on the club, the ticket prices remain reasonable and as I live a good bit away and oftentimes work until 7.00pm I can't get a season ticket anyway, but I do feel for those families who are essentially priced out of maybe the one luxury they had.

36 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Selling the stadium was a mechanism to spend MORE under P&S rules, and isn't a sign of an owner unwilling to continue funding the club - as per all the other clubs to have done the same and not gone into administration.

I didn't say it was a sign that an owner was unwilling to continue to fund the club. In my reply to Angieram I described the situation you have just said. I think it's a sign of a poorly run business that is having to sell assets to facilitate potentially greater capital spend to either get under the loss limiting mechanisms defined for clubs or to accumulate cash. 

6 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Perhaps I should have highlighted this for you:

"Do you really think Pride Park is worth 80 million quid... At the time I'm pretty sure it was widely regarded this was a very high end valuation"

£80m was justified as fair value under independant review. Other sales (such as Stoke) were sold using the same method.

I did say 'even if it was a fair valuation' towards the end of the post. I recognise I'm not an expert in these fields. 

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Stoke sold their stadium for £70m without any critisism.

Stoke is run by the Coates family in an astoundingly poor way. With massively bloated wage bills, managerial merry-go-round and finances they are completely reliant upon the owners to plug massive holes. I don't think many would look at how Stoke is run and say 'great job'. 

6 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

It's not what it's "worth", it was valued on the basis of what it would cost to replace it with a new one, less the wear on it, which is an absolutely standard way to value assets like this.  When you consider Brentford have just spend ~£70m building a 17k stadium, and Brighton spent ~£90m on a 32k one pretty recently, those figures look more than reasonable.  Neither the EFL's independent commission, or the appeals into that decision, could find anything wrong with the valuation.

If you want a detailed explanation of exactly how and why it was valued at the figure it was, I suggest you read the report from the first tribunal hearing.  There's a very detailed breakdown of everything in there.  And consider that the EFLs inexperienced valuer, who basically valued it on the basis of it being equivalent to a 3-sides-terraced stadium, still thought it was worth £50m+.

As I said, even if it was a correct valuation it should still have rung alarm bells that assets were being 'sold' in this way.

4 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Can't disagree that we were poorly run, as is pretty much every club it the owners should fall on hard times or pull the plug. 

The other clubs in the Championship received funding from the EFL to help with cash flow problems post Covid, we didn't and were forced to take out loans at ridiculous interest rates. 

I don't know as I am not a commercial property valuer. But one of the most highly respected commercial property valuers believed that given its potential it was worth £80m.

From the findings of the IDC it was valued even higher than that but the EFL asked us to reduce the valuation, which we duly did only to then be charged with using the EFLs recommended valuation.

The sale of the ground, and the way that it was covered up and not disclosed to the fans, is the thing that irks me most, especially when there was a fans forum and neither Morris or Pearce thought it was worthy of mention.

I think on the first point that's a large part of my argument. I just don't buy that because many other clubs are poorly run it makes it acceptable that we are poorly run. 

On the value of the stadium like the amortisation issue I'm not an expert so I'll let others decide on that. But yes not disclosing this was clearly not a good idea whomever proposed keeping it secret. 

Feeling good about this. We dominated them at Pride Park and hopefully we can manage this again. Should be a great atmosphere with 5,000 making the trip too 🙂 

Unfortunate to see the amount go up but it being frozen for a few years I guess it was inevitable. 

1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said:

Once again you are referring to an over inflated price of the stadium, something which experts in the field and an Independent Disciplinary Commission disagree with.

To form a view, should you not be using facts, rather than your own personal views?

Do you really think Pride Park is worth 80 million quid... At the time I'm pretty sure it was widely regarded this was a very high end valuation. Even if it was a correct valuation selling off assets is hardly a sign of confidence... 

Just now, G STAR RAM said:

Once again though, I'd re-iterate to go around accusing a business of being crooked without any evidence, is a very unprofessional thing for someone who is very highly regarded in their field to do. The fact that Independent experts who have had access to all of the information have basically shown that claim to be false should really tell you everything you need to know, and if you're incorrectly continuing to use that label against Stephen Pearce then it is obviously going to unfairly sway your opinion on him. Just my take on matters.

Even taking the MSD loan of £20m into account, it is highly plausible that this was covering costs all incurred post Covid, once again making Pearce's comment made in May 2020 truthful at the time it was told.

At what point MM stopped funding the club will never be known (In the last accounts signed off, MM had given written assurances that he would continue to support the clubs financing requirements up to June 2020 at the earliest.) but my guess would be post Covid) What Pearce could do about that I am not sure?

I'll use the word 'unique' policy in the future as that's what it was. As I've said in other posts I think the way the club was ran we now know was strategically poor, tens of millions were wasted and we alienated ourselves from the governing body. We were also the only club in the top 2 divisions to face such a crisis post covid. I'm not sure how us being in that position made us 'more prepared than most' for pre covid. To me, it simply does not add up. 

1 hour ago, angieram said:

Aren't most football clubs at Championship level and above part of a "flawed unsustainable business structure", propped up by the largesse of their owners? Until they decide to pull the plug - and that's where the current problem in football lies. 

Does that mean every CEO is at fault for following the instructions of their owners? 

There's one person to blame for the mess at Derby County, and he is no longer owner! 

There are levels and levels. We weren't operating like a Preston or a Coventry or a Luton. We were operating closer to a Villa, Leeds and Stoke model. In my opinion, those models are inherently dangerous and if you don't have billions (which Mel never did) then it adds an extra layer of risk. You add in the 'unique' amortisation policy, selling off PP to the owner at an overinflated price, buying players which it turned out we couldn't fully pay for and the MSD loan it all starts to look like an absolute shambles... which it was. We don't know the full circumstances as to the timeline when Mel decided he'd pull the funding but I doubt he woke up one morning and said 'f*** this I'm pulling the plug'. Rumours had already been circulating that there were financial problems before we went into administration after all. 

I think pretending Pearce had no control over the running of the club as CEO is slightly ridiculous. Also pretending we were run 'just like every other club' isn't exactly true either. We enacted policies to maximise our financial leverage and when the capital ran out the floor dropped out from underneath us. In doing so we alienated other clubs and the organisation running our league who bore a grudge against us until a new owner took over. 

Now personally, I don't think it's good enough for the CEO at the time who still remains in his job merely to say 'I'd rather not discuss it'. Well, I and 30,000 others would rather not have seen the club almost liquidated, the academy pilfered and a relegation forced upon us. I'm sure the people who lost their jobs would rather not have seen that happen and the vendors who lost money would rather have been paid on time and in the full amount. To me it just stinks that he takes that attitude given what has happened. 

11 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

I think having different views is quite a leap from calling something crooked, when it isn't. 

Unless your brother in law was privvy to the valuations assigned to players and had his own reliable method for proving they were over inflated I really struggle to see how he could come to the conclusion it was crooked and I'd say his opinion was anything other than professional and is more akin to the Kieran Maguire type comments made with no justification. 

I'm afraid I just can't agree with you on the last point. We were left bankrupt because our owner refused to continue to financially support us.

With regards to what I said earlier regarding the timescale of us getting in the mess,.with a wage bill of over £40m it would literally only have taken 9 or 10 months to rack up a PAYE debt of £25m. Hence how we went from being in a good position pre Covid to tens of millions in debt when we entered administration in September 2021 (from memory).

Well not really no. In my field, there is a range of different views on legitimacy- one person may say something is legitimate another person may reasonably contest that point. Again, I'm not an accountant so on the more technical details I can't contest them. 

If a business cannot sustain itself without regular large infusions of cash it makes it functionally non-viable does it not?  Now most clubs do run on an investor model but we were at the sharper end of owner investment reliance with the Villa, Leeds, Stoke and a couple of others. The red flags were there with the loan from MSD, selling the stadium back to himself at an overinflated price, and the inability to pay Cocu's full severance package which he 'deferred'.  Rowett's revelations that Mel was scaling back investment to then only go and blow a load on Lampard speaks of serious strategic failures at a high level. This was hardly a well-managed ship- it was a wreck moving from one expensive mistake to another. Now you can lay all that at the feet of Mel or you can suggest maybe the CEO is also in some way to blame. With the amortisation policy, it completely alienated us from the EFL, rightly or wrongly, strategically it was an idiotic thing to do even if it got us out of the mire temporarily. The blowback was horrific. 

I think it's difficult to argue the club wasn't financially and strategically mismanaged. It led us to go within a week of non-existence, indebted and unable to even pay transfer fees on players we'd already signed. We were left in a position no other club in the division was in. I tend to think that Pearce as CEO bears some responsibility for that and his unwillingness to publically own up to his part in almost killing a 140-year-old institution doesn't reflect well on him. It in my view speaks a little to his character and potentially lack of it. It leaves a cloud hanging over the club with him here continuing. 

That's just my opinion though and I respect that plenty of others with more knowledge than me of the situation will disagree. 

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Fair comment on the first point, I genuinely don't remember the last time I had really even heard him in public. 

I think even at the point in question we were not in much financial trouble which I could probably demonstrate if I went through the accounts.

As an accountant and auditor for 25 years myself, I also see myself very well qualified to comment on the amortisation matter and I'm completely baffled why anyone in the field would describe the policy as crooked, and the experts on the Independent Disciplinary Commission certainly didn't seem to take that view either.

Regarding the 3rd point, fair enough if you think an apology would go anywhere towards putting things right. I imagine if he did apologise you wouldn't accept it anyway given how you seem to view matters. Also perhaps he doesn't think he has anything to apologise for, after all it wasn't him that pulled the plug and stopped funding his business.

On the second point, I guess it's like anything in fields people have different views. From memory, my brother-in-law believed it was essentially a ploy to overinflate assets to skirt what were rules put in place to ensure fairness of competition. He felt, from what I remember, that it also indicated deeper issues with the core business model. I would emphasise I know nothing about this area at all but I do know we were at odds with how other clubs did their accounts at the time. 

On the 3rd point honestly, an apology and a recognition of his role in the disaster would go a long way with me. He was a core part of the flawed unsustainable business structure which left us in 10's of millions of debt and ultimately saw us as a bankrupt and isolated business. By not openly recognising his role in that debacle and it's ludicrous to suggest as CEO he had no role in it, it just makes me think what planet is this guy on. It makes me think he's arrogant and a bit ridiculous. I recognise people make mistakes, even serial mistakes, but a failure to acknowledge to recognise those mistakes is a serious issue for me. 

10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Just a few counter arguments here:-

When was the last time, pre administration, that he told everyone things were hunky dory? The last time I remember it was the Nunsfield House forum, at which point the ground sale had gone through and the amortisation policy agreed with The EFL. Even then from memory he said we were sailing close to the wind and were possibly be within hundred thousand of the limit. Seem to remember him saying it was why a good cup run would help. Happy to be corrected if I've got anything wrong here.

The amortisation policy that you seem to state he made up is actually quite very standard policy. Not standard in the football world but certainly very common in the business world. It was actually a clever idea which helped reflect reality much more than the current system did. Of course if there was anything wrong with it, the EFL had plenty of opportunity to point this out.

Not really sure what you want him to say about the MM era? Personally I'm happy to leave it in the past and also happy to trust Clowes' judgement if he thinks keeping him on is to the benefit of the club. Clowes is a Derby fan through and through and I'm sure if he thought Pearce was responsible for nearly destroying the club he loves, he would be long gone.

To the first question I'd just put this up as an example as to what I'm talking about. 

 on the amortisation policy, my brother-in-law who worked as a senior accountant at a major firm described it to me as crooked and dangerous as a policy. He spotted it as a red flag immediately when he read reports of it tbh. Now I tend to trust his judgement in these matters as he's highly regarded in his field. 

On the third point I'd like him to show some f****** contrition. He's somehow been kept on a six figure salary after playing a significant role in almost killing the club. I don't think I've ever heard him even apologise for his role in this. When he's asked about his role in the media I don't think it's good enough for him to say he'd rather not talk about it. Given what the club and the fans went through it strikes me as exceedingly arrogant that he believes he can simply pretend it never happened. 

 

I'm not a lawyer but I find it hard to believe that Morris still has an NDA so wide-ranging around Pearce that he can't shed any light at all on how he felt while performing that job. I would think it would be very hard, if not impossible, to make an argument that Pearce's feelings on job performance and environment are part of confidential company information. As far as I am aware NDA's that are too broad or pertain to information which could not be considered confidential can be broken and have been. There is also a question that if he did sign an unbreakable NDA then there would also surely be questions as to the viability of his use in his position in the post-Morris era as presumably Pearce also couldn't discuss these issues with Clowes either. I find it odd that everyone just seems to have accepted this explanation with seemingly little to no probing at all, including local journalists. 

I think the sooner leaves the club the better. He helped drive the club off the cliff edge and repeatedly went on media shows telling us all everything was hunky dory when it wasn't. His discussion on radio derby where he says 'he'd rather not discuss the mel era' just shows his problems. I find it staggering that someone that high up in the club could comfortably state that given the trauma that the club and the fanbase went through. A trauma which he helped create and would have failed to mop up without a last minute local businessman saving his backside. 

Either the bloke was incompetent or he lied. Those are the two choices he's left with tbh. Our amortisation policy which he helped deploy was a recipe for disaster aside from the moral questionability of such a practice. Clowes kept him on for god knows what reason- perhaps he's a nice guy who believes the best in everyone or maybe he saw a giant organisation in an absolute state and needed someone to steer the ship for a year or two while he got more acquainted with it. However, the day Pearce leaves, either mutually or not, will be a day I'll be celebrating. 

Glad to see Ed is back. His commentary isn't for me as he simply couldn't accurately describe the game. I'd watch the highlights and they rarely reflected what I heard on the radio. However, despite me not being a fan of his work, he must have gone through a horrible time. He clearly cares about the club and wants to see it flourish. He's a part of the derby county community and we should all wish him well on his return. 

really like the look of this signing. Gayle's always impressed me with his awareness of space, clinical finishing, pace and power. At this level even at 34 he should be able to grab a few to get us over the line.

As a regular user of the train system I despair. It's poorly organised, inefficient and staffed by people who seem more bothered about striking than actually doing their jobs. Even when they're not striking the customer service is mostly terrible as conductors oftentimes treat passengers as potential fare dodgers for their s*** service. 

Think Bird's an idiot for moving to Bristol City but there you go. Bristol aren't going anywhere in the championship, have a mountain of debt they need to move and is the less passionate fanbase in a city with a league 1 team... I don't see them getting promoted unless it's a luton scenario and that's pretty rare these days. I'd understand it more if it was a coventry for instance. 

I think this kind of shows where we are as a club right now which is quite depressing. Our inability to sign a striker is really depressing and it is yet another disappointing transfer window. I understand we can't pay fees upfront or big wages but the stature of the club and the position should be enough for us to get a striker or 2 through the door at this level. We're the only ones who can boast of averaging 25,000+ in the third tier, sitting in the playoffs, and will still have a bigger wage budget than 90% of teams at this level. If this doesn't equate to bodies coming through the door when we need them then something is going wrong.

we will finish 4th i think and lose in the semi finals. I just can't see us getting promoted.