Asanovic70

Sheff W 2 - 0 Derby

Derby 2  Portsmouth 1, FRGS Hourihane

1 hour ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

You always have to take a promotion to my mind.  That's the point of the game.

I agree, up to a point, but I think there are other (sustainable) ways of getting promotion such as sides building a platform over time, or learning from an experience to go one step better (Plymouth by the look of things). Imploded on the last day of last season to miss out on the play-offs, now look at them.

I'm not a massive fan of the PL, I've always thought it better to approach it on your terms rather than mortgage yourself as is so often the case. Both Brentford in terms of expenditure (£30-40m) & Brighton have done it in their own particular ways, with both suffering disappointment along the way until they were both ready. You could argue we never built on our play-off defeats, partly due to a trigger-happy owner and personnel changes.

 I thought Jewell was a poor manager, suffered some ill-luck on occasions (several late goals knocked the stuffing out of that team, injuries to a very average squad) but he couldn't arrest the decline. Just as I think the current chairman can offer stability off the field that can lead to success on it, Derby were rudderless off the field as well (GSE takeover) leading to bad decisions all round.

42 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

For years people have been suffering panics about promotion due to Jewells buffoonery,

Eh? The play-off win at Wembley was special, but 2007 put us back several seasons and led to another relegation battle. There was no infrastructure in place. Jewell wasn't just to blame, he is a convenient scapegoat for a number of ills: Davies' rotten buys and a limited budget.

The OP's argument isn't necessarily a popular one, but I think the present owner is the most important person at our club. He's appointed a manager who has a proven record at getting a side out of this division. He's the one setting in place an infrastructure that will hopefully yield results (recruitment). Why can't people have faith in him to play the long game? I remember his recent interview where he said he was pleasantly surprised by our current form with the suggestion that he expected Warne to have us making a concerted challenge next season.

I don't think he will leave & if he does sell us on/other investors come in, he will try to stay in some capacity to oversee things & avoid the last dire situation we found ourselves in.

If we can reach the play-offs, after all the restrictions we have been operating under, it just shows the disparity that exists between clubs in this division in contrast to the Champ'ship, and that promotion ought to happen sooner or later, and within three seasons once we get shot of all the restrictions. Historically it's taken two seasons each time we've found ourselves at this level. We didn't operate under restrictions under Cox's tenure in the old Third. 

As for the sides fighting the drop in the Champ'ship, several of the bigger hitters, vis Birmingham, Cardiff, Reading, Huddersfield (two of whom have been in the moneybags PL) are all sides with financial problems/limited budgets akin to our present situation, but one where we are shedding historic debts (agents fees) & starting from a clean slate.

It is frustrating to be in this division, but I am quietly optimistic about the future under this owner. It just won't happen in the present moment, but we are looking upwards because it can't get any worse. We had two or three seasons of instability after Lampard left and now are gradually building.

My heart says promotion now and wants us to finish 6th etc, my head says that I want us to be a sustainable club and to put faith in the owner. He is ultimately the most important person at Derby at the present moment.

Derby 1 - 0 Burton, RGS Dobbin

0-0

Bristol Rovers 1 -1 Derby, RGS Hourihane

Derby 2 - 1 MK Dons, FRGS, Mendez-Laing

FGR 1 -2 Derby, FRGS McGoldrick

15 hours ago, IslandExile said:

If you don't like polls, simply move on, go and do something else. Is Love island on the TV?

So much of what you post feeds into the other that you simply cannot ignore one/have one without the other. It does impact on the manager and the choices available to him.

For instance, clearly you need options on the bench for your substitutions to make a difference. How many strikers do we have? One real target-man  and our top GS has had a brilliant season, but who is more of a no.10. We've got a first eleven that is a match for anyone, but after that, little else.

Squad depth allows you to rest and rotate players & drop those out of form. Two of our key midfielders have been injured for a period of time. Unfortunately, we expect more from Jason Knight and his versatility doesn't seem to do him any his favours. Here, some criticism of the management may be due.

Compare us with Ipswich who had, I think, three strikers as options, Ladapo, Hirst & Chaplin and all of different ability, one athletic, one physical, allowing others to play off him, one small, mobile & clever (a Jamie Ward type), allowing for variation in play.

Others we signed like Barkhuizen, good honest professionals, but last season, Barkhuizen was injured for most of it (hamstrings) and maybe, like some, has felt the pace the further this one has gone on. 

The January window. Who did we bring in? Two young reserves who have made more sporadic contributions rather than sustained ones.

It's interesting to see Big Dave at Sheff W. Plus ca change, c'est la meme chose. I remember when we signed him in January 2006 as he became the first cash purchase we had made in a couple of seasons.

We are now back to that situation, a division lower, and we aren't even in the position to make a cash purchase (the luxury of choice). Yes, we have the third highest payroll, but this division is lopsided as evidenced by attendances, so we are clearly much better than most of the so-called 'lesser' teams but  still well behind those sides/our promotion rivals in terms of development, several of whom have had to go through stages of upheaval over a couple of seasons in this league to get where they are (Ipswich). Barnsley? Well, I think their squad was considerably younger than ours and more suited to the energy currently required to get out of it. Yes, Duff has certainly made more of an impact than Warne, you could argue, but if he'd been at Derby with the same squad, not sure.

1 - 1 

RGS, McGoldrick

16 hours ago, Mucker1884 said:

With all due respect, I suspect both clubs need at least another twenty consecutive years at our respective current levels before that changes!  
We have higher expectations than them for good reason.  We've pretty much been a top 30 club for almost 140 years, including two stints as the best of the best!   

I get your point, but then that gets into the argument about it is what you are achieving in the present which matters & not basking in past glories. The divisions are littered with clubs with illustrious histories.

It is frustrating to be where we are, but at least Derby under Mr Clowes have put a brake on things so that we didn't end up like Coventry, Bolton & Portsmouth in L2.

There are plenty of so called 'lesser' sides who have outstripped us in terms of achievement, from the likes of Swansea winning a trophy (EFL Cup) to Wigan (FA Cup), both also having a sustained spell in the PL.

I think we've got to start justifying this so-called 'top billing' by acting like a professionally well-run club. Tempering expectations also means offering the club owner etc some patience and latitude to make mistakes as well as the time to put in the right infrastructure. Patience was in supply at the likes of Brentford & Swansea.

We've have 30 years of relative disappointment & underachievement, so what's another ten to get it right?

Of course, I expect to be dead by the time we achieve it but you can't have everything.

As a fan, I'm impatient to have success but it's an enlightening interview such as the section where Mr Clowes actually states that he's been surprised by the success Warne has had so far. Now the interview may have been conducted before the excellent run came to an end with 3L on the road, but it does seem to indicate that the new owner expected us to mount a real challenge next season & has realistic expectations.

He also mentions about getting us back in the Champ'ship & established in five seasons, so hopefully promotion within two, maybe three seasons and then consolidating perhaps like Coventry, Sunderland & Sheff United as relatively big sides who have fallen down the divisions or been blighted by mismanagement (Coventry in particular).

I think we can use the likes of Brentford as a model. I worked in Hounslow twenty years ago when Bees United (ABeeC), I think, actually won a seat on the local council & were a club whose future was under threat & ended up putting pressure on the local council to become more supportive at a time when the club occupied a very low profile. There's been steady progress but especially in the last decade when you think how they missed out promotion on the final day to Doncaster (2012-13). A decade where they have been promoted twice & featured in two play-off campaigns in the Championship, built a new stadium and have now spent two seasons in the PL.

Brentford fans perhaps had lower expectations, and maybe that is what we need to do, temper our expectations. As Mr Clowes puts it, 'there has been more bad than good over the last thirty years and there hasn't been a lot of success...' but he praises the fans were continually sticking by the club, and it's  been a constant theme during his ownership, how much value he places on the club's support. He cannot do it alone.

It was also interesting to read early in the interview how it appears Mr Clowes has been asked a couple of years before to get involved in owing a football club & you wonder if he had been approached before by Mel Morris, but the situation at the club (its complicated finances) & the responsibility of owing it deterred him until his hand was ultimately forced by Kirchner.

It is immensely frustrating to see us where we are, but consoling, too, that we have an owner now who has a long-term vision and a proven record in his own business field, so that he can replicate, in time, something similar at Derby.

Peterborough 2 -2 Derby, FRGS Knight

Derby 2 - 1 Fleetwood, FRGS Sibley

0- 1 , RGS Collins

Plymouth 1 -1 Derby

RGS, Dobbin

1 - 1 , RGS Collins

@Brailsford Ram

Another great post, you have my respect for going/enduring all 38 games in that PL season. We're all desperate for success, to get out of L1, play-offs in the Champ'ship, promotion to the PL etc, but we have spent one season practically in the last twenty years in the PL, and there's a view that it wasn't worth it. Our fans have had to learn patience & maybe a period of real consolidation over the next few years (a given time period) can lay the groundwork for something more sustainable & a realistic chance of success (as you point out in your posts).

I think Derby, perhaps more than any club, has suffered from individuals with big egos. Brian Clough's ego was healthy in the sense that he could back his words up (before my time), but we have experienced Robert Maxwell, managers like Billy Davies and an owner (Mel Morris). Davies is fondly remembered by some for giving us that memorable season, but it came at a significant cost, as you highlighted. It actually put us back several years & led to a consecutive relegation battle. I always thought Billy Davies used us to further his own ambition, in a similar way perhaps to Lampard (another memorable campaign to a degree). Ironically, he was given the same support by Forest, and patience, but ultimately failed to get them over the line.

It was very interesting reading what you had to say about the board & Davies, I remember Mike Horton (executive),he seemed a sensible guy & then he left shortly after the furore over player bonuses. Hindsight's wonderful, perhaps the board ought to have chosen  a candidate better suited (& prepared) with regards to building something over time.

As for Forest/comparisons (PL), we spent around £30m that season, which translates into £45m in today's money, taking into account inflation. So we spent roughly what Forest have largely paid for one player, Gibbs-White. I think Nott'm F have spent around between £150-180m so we spent a quarter/third of what they have done. Of the five promoted clubs to stay up in recent years, only two spent less than £100m, Sheff United (£60m+) & Brentford (£30-£35m) (recent article online/Independent).

I think Sky have paid much more regarding tv rights than they needed to (now there are more competitors) as they wanted to ensure their 'product' retained interest and ensure a degree of competitiveness between teams & fairer allocation of money so that even sides in the lower half could compete in the transfer market & we now have the scenario where even Norwich can outbid one of the better sides in the Bundesliga (Bayer Leverkusen) for a player. So, it's unlikely that any team will finish with as low a points total as ours, bar Huddersfield in recent seasons with 15. There's an argument that their promotion season was similar to ours, a bottom half/eight finish, then victory in the play-offs though they did stay up for a season, but their lack of quality (& infrastructure) eventually revealed itself during that second season. 

Derby 1 -0 Cheltenham

RGS, Knight

14 hours ago, Brailsford Ram said:

we can't predict what will happen in the future but we can give ourselves a bit of time in planning for a future that might subsequently be much rosier than that brought about by a mad dash. History should have taught us that. We're in a marathon here, not a sprint.

COYR

Terrific post (all of it, not just the bit quoted) ?

11 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

That's not down to them not being ready that's because they've exploited the opportunity they were given. We didn't. We pissed the whole thing up the wall. But don't say we weren't ready. 

No, I don't agree, I don't call spending £180m+ exploiting an opportunity to finish bottom six and have the worse goal return in away games in all four divisions. We didn't buy experienced PL players, Forest have done this including players from Euro leagues. These players cost in terms of wages etc.  I'm not sure it's right to be so dismissive of us in the PL in comparison to Forest, who have eclipsed the spending of Villa & Fulham as promoted clubs in recent seasons, both spending £100m+ .

Billy Davies demanded we spent the £60m we were going to get for being in the PL, half of it going to pay historic debts. So past baggage held us back. There's an argument that he should have received more backing but his signings were poor or underperformed and he was asking the club to mortgage itself - which is what eventually happened under Mel Morris.

I'd argue that we went from 20th & a flirtation with a relegation battle to promotion with little in-between. It was a memorable season, but the new owners flashed the cash at Billy Davies who was ambitious and left Preston to join a club with more resources. Unfortunately, these weren't forthcoming for the PL season. The situation in 2006 has vague echoes of now in that the club was emerging from a chaotic ownership & the ABC loan (crippling interest). There's a view that we should have taken the sort of approach we are doing now in rebuilding the club over the long-term.

I agree nobody turns down a promotion if it happens, but we are still being held back still by restrictions. There isn't anything wrong in building a platform or keep doing the right things - build an infrastructure, appoint the right people - because eventually a promotion will happen, as did for the likes of Brentford in the division above etc. We are too big a side to stay in L1 forever, that is the simple fact.

FWIW, I think we have an intelligent owner, who shocked us with the decision to replace Rosenior but which looks a decision that will benefit both parties. The sort of owner we have been probably desperate/crying out for in decades. 

0-0

There's no doubt Cooper's done a good job, but look at the tools he's been given, experienced players, some with PL experience, others from top clubs in Europe, & elite clubs at that. Most PL sides outside the elite would sign Navas if given the chance. And this was after Forest signed Henderson from Man United!

It's not the same as Brentford or Brighton buying unknowns & developing them (Toney). Contast Forest with Swansea who signed players from the lesser lights of La Liga like Michu from Rayo Vallecano.

£180m +. I think Dane Murphy has been sidelined, & has actually left. This was the man who made the astute signings (loans) last season & also did an impressive job at Barnsley. It'd be interesting to hear his take on what has happened. Apparently, his statement did not mention Giraldi, the Sporting Director, brought in by Forest. It reminds of the power struggle between Nigel Clough & Sam Rush. Yes, Clough's position often came into question, it wasn't just results which determined his fate but ultimately who had the final say over signings. It's clear now that our transfer policy after Clough was haphazard.

I genuinely think Forest's approach is unsustainable. I find it of interest because of the parallels to us. OK, I accept the argument that they will receive much greater tv revenue, but if the PL largesse is so great, why do the likes of Bolton, Cardiff etc, end up in financial trouble? Surely, the argument is that the PL sets clubs up for life, making them solvent. Or does it? Why is it necessary then that at least 12 clubs, perhaps 13,  are now owned by billionaires? Tony Bloom only has a fortune of £800m. Only £800m!

The PL largesse often goes out in wages & fees, and as said, contrast the young players who got Forest up with the players they have signed now who have no re-sale value. It's more than likely that Forest would have got relegated with these younger stars, but these players would have remained assets, and Forest may have become a yo-yo club. If I was a Forest fan, I may have criticised the lack of ambition but welcomed we weren't mortgaging ourselves (ditto Norwich).

As for Murphy, he may have the last laugh. Who is to say, he may not have advocated the approach now taken? After what happened to us, I'm glad to have Mark Thomas on board as well as Mr Clowes who is fast becoming one of the best owners we could have ever hoped for after Kirchner's arrest. Football's a funny old game, in about five years,  maybe less, Forest & us will be in the same division but we will be the more solvent club. It happened when we were in the PL & they were in League 1. They returned to the Championship with some erratic results but were better run than us.

That side eventually got ripped up by Billy Davies & ended up with Doughty being forced to put his beloved club up for sale with huge debts.

Derby 1 Charlton 2

RGS Knight