Different players for different formations

[sage]

Out of interest, we won the 1966 World Cup playing a diamond system. 

[Dimmu]

Exactly. What went wrong for us was our system needed a defensive midfielder and a striker to play into and then off. We had neither. 

Our whole system was built on fast minimal touch passing after we'd had the 6 passes Mac wanted the team to have before kicking on. I assume he feels 6 or so passes is the number to control possession and settle on the ball before springing forward. Thing is it became 10. It became slow. 

We never had a problem with Plan A until we started worrying about clean sheets and control more than doing what worked for us. Even then we were still very strong. Then came the injuries and we got lost then. 

Just taking a diamond and Will Hughes for one example. Will knows how to operate with Hendrick, Bryson and Thorne in a 433. He knows how to be that middle player in the sort of staggered 3. He knows the where and when. Put him on the left of a diamond and that changes. He has to figure his distances again. What width to offer. His marking and tracking will change completely. His partnership with Thorne won't even be the same because as the widest midfielder he has to support a fullback. His partnership with Hendrick, Bryson will pretty much vanish defensively. On the ball he won't have a winger to go to. All his passing options will be inside. All his space will change with the new movement of the team.

Not that it's a bad way to play. It's just different and a role that he'll want to learn. That will take a little bit of time to just understand what he needs to do in a diamond. Which again is fine. But then you're introducing other systems on top of that? So he could be playing that role twice in a week or once in a month. 

I suppose I'm making it sound like he's learning rocket science when really it's just him needing to adapt a few things. But this is the same for all players and thus it becomes a bigger issue of a team learning what works and what doesn't in a system they don't play every week

McClaren tried a diamond at Burton away and it looked rubbish. He switched to 433 and the team instantly hit their stride (for a pre season friendly). 

Not saying I know better than Clement. I wouldn't have clue how to communicate ideas to footballers. All i'm saying is from a player perspective you grow into a role and begin to take on all the responsibilities of it with more and more ease. You get help where you need it. 

To have multiple roles to learn is a steep learning curve.

Clement said himself "it will go into the season". 

All I'm saying is its perhaps best to add some caution to the optimism that the team will have all the answers because we have a coach that has a plan A-Z. 

The worst thing Nigel ever did and where I lost a large amount of faith was when he abandoned 4231 because it took a couple of beatings. It had promise that did. It wasn't perfect and neither were the players. But it was a nice fit. Lots of promise to work on. 

Then we switched to Plan B. Then C. Then all the way to survival mode percentage 442 to try and pick up enough points to see us through. He was onto something and he abandoned it for Luke Moore and short term gain

I think you are complicating it. 4-4-2 diamond and 4-3-3 are actualy very close to each other and those two are often used together. Tactic was created (or at least made famous by certain Carlo Ancelotti during his Milan days..)

Get your AMC/playmaker/number 10, whatever you want to call him, 10 yards higher and you get 4-3-3. Defending wise it gives lots of options, you can defend with three or two upfront or even by just one. Main point is do we want to pressure high or drop deeper first, do fullbacks or someone else need special treatment etc.

I'm actually quite excited by this. You could even add 4-5-1 too, it can be easily changed with just little twists. I'd say it is best possible tactic if you want to change your game to counter the strenghts of opposition without losing your own style.

Unfortunately my patience is not good enough to write essays like you but there's hell of a lot of nyances with these chosen tactics and it should make our game more interesting, at least tactical wise.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

100% the above.

[valleyram]

The biggest problem pc has is keeping that squad of players happy , very hard job as they are a talented bunch of guys but they all want to play 

[robglosta]

The biggest problem pc has is keeping that squad of players happy , very hard job as they are a talented bunch of guys but they all want to play 

They'll be fine if we're storming the league.. 

[RodleyRam]

The problem with differing formations is not all the players are going to be suited to their specific role, it makes recruitment harder or in some cases forces a scattergun approach.

At least when you have one system, you can identify which players are needed for each speciific role and work to it like that. Recruitment is easier, pinpointing sepcific needs and highlighting weaknesses is easier.

I don't buy this need to change systems when 'Plan A' doesn't work. That's illogical, and no decent team would ever make radical chancges to a team when losing one game.

You don't see Swansea City saying 'we've been found out' when they lose their yearly home match to Everton, prompting a complete change from their 4-3-3 to some wacky diamond formation.

No, they brush themselves down, work on strengthening what they have and go again.

I don't want to be negative here, but if we continue to change systems, I can only see confusion happening and arguably a number of players getting frustrated at not being able to nail down a specific role and work on it.

I'm telling you now, footballers don't enjoy being deployed in a number of different positions/roles. Ask any 'versatile' player and they'll always say they'd like a run of games at one specific position.

yep this. Nowt wrong with our 4-3-3 barring a few tweaks IMHO. What was lacking was leadership and application.  helps to have a few emergency variations but no way should we be swapping all the time, that screams collapse to me! I'm I'm sure we'll see a pretty consistent approach

[Sexydadbod]

The biggest problem pc has is keeping that squad of players happy , very hard job as they are a talented bunch of guys but they all want to play 

Mine sure he will be fine. He was at real madrid last year remember and part of his role there was keeping the team spirit high.

[Ramchop]

Guess the formation

Hughes - thorne - Hendrick

Russell - martin - weimann

As an opposition manager, who is your back 4 marking?

[Milbs]

I'm happy with the diamond or 4-3-3 and I'd imagine we will be flexible in our approach. The diamond will suite Ince , Bent and Weimann more for me (basing my opinion on Bent struggling in a one up, Weimann being better down the middle according to Villa fans and Ince being able to have a good influence behind the front two.)

 

The 4-3-3 is a proven system in that Martin plays very well in that system and we can have Russell using his direct approach down the left and Ince coming inside onto his left peg on the right.

George Thorne/Chris Baird will be absolute key to both systems, Martin the key too 4-3-3. Be interesting to see what PC is going to do!

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

It will be interesting to see how he lines up in away games. The team on paper looks like it should be spaffing goals all over the place, so playing defensively away from home might not be the best move.

[IlsonDerby]

I can't be the only one to realise that from 433 to the diamond we only change one position system wise. The target man turns into a number ten and drops back 15 yards. Other than that it's the same system and those in attack will probably be expected to cover marauding full backs as per the 433

[sage]

I can't be the only one to realise that from 433 to the diamond we only change one position system wise. The target man turns into a number ten and drops back 15 yards. Other than that it's the same system and those in attack will probably be expected to cover marauding full backs as per the 433

Yes and No. 

You are right in that the CF drops backs into the hole behind 2 split strikers. 

However there are subtle differences,

The two wide forwards who have become split strikers will be pushed up onto the last defenders.

The CF (now number 10) will defensively have to drop into midfield.

The midfielders either side of the DCM will be expected to play with more width than in a 4 3 3.

They will also be expected to stay on 'their side' of the pitch.

They are also more likely to play on the side of their favoured foot, ie Hughes on the left and Bryson/Hendrick on the right. 

In the diamond there will be a greater emphasis on the full backs getting forward and the DCM dropping into a back 3.  

 

[Rampage]

Yes and No. 

You are right in that the CF drops backs into the hole behind 2 split strikers. 

However there are subtle differences,

The two wide forwards who have become split strikers will be pushed up onto the last defenders.

The CF (now number 10) will defensively have to drop into midfield.

The midfielders either side of the DCM will be expected to play with more width than in a 4 3 3.

They will also be expected to stay on 'their side' of the pitch.

They are also more likely to play on the side of their favoured foot, ie Hughes on the left and Bryson/Hendrick on the right. 

In the diamond there will be a greater emphasis on the full backs getting forward and the DCM dropping into a back 3.  

 

This is either a load of sage and onion or you are the most informed person on tactical formations on this forum (possibly on any forum). I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt because your posts are the only ones that I have to read twice to fully understand but they make complete sense on the second reading.Unfortunately after reading it twice and understanding it, I still cannot repeat it. Rosemary and Thyme for brains. I guess.

This game tonight may be the first time that I went to a Derby match and thought that I might come home wondering what formation(s) they played. I suppose that it may catch out the opposition when we change during the game. 

[Ambitious]

The problem with differing formations is not all the players are going to be suited to their specific role, it makes recruitment harder or in some cases forces a scattergun approach.

At least when you have one system, you can identify which players are needed for each speciific role and work to it like that. Recruitment is easier, pinpointing sepcific needs and highlighting weaknesses is easier.

I don't buy this need to change systems when 'Plan A' doesn't work. That's illogical, and no decent team would ever make radical chancges to a team when losing one game.

You don't see Swansea City saying 'we've been found out' when they lose their yearly home match to Everton, prompting a complete change from their 4-3-3 to some wacky diamond formation.

No, they brush themselves down, work on strengthening what they have and go again.

I don't want to be negative here, but if we continue to change systems, I can only see confusion happening and arguably a number of players getting frustrated at not being able to nail down a specific role and work on it.

I'm telling you now, footballers don't enjoy being deployed in a number of different positions/roles. Ask any 'versatile' player and they'll always say they'd like a run of games at one specific position.

I guess it depends on how radical the 'change' is:

Grant

Christie, Keogh, Shackell, Forsyth

Thorne

Hughes, Hendrick

Ince

Martin, Weimann

Can quickly change to:

Grant

Christie, Keogh, Shackell, Forsyth

Thorne,

Hughes, Hendrick

Ince, Martin, Weimann

Even:

Grant

Christie, Keogh, Shackell, Forsyth

Thorne, Hendrick

Ince, Hughes, Weimann

Martin

[sage]

This is either a load of sage and onion or you are the most informed person on tactical formations on this forum (possibly on any forum). I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt because your posts are the only ones that I have to read twice to fully understand but they make complete sense on the second reading.Unfortunately after reading it twice and understanding it, I still cannot repeat it. Rosemary and Thyme for brains. I guess.

This game tonight may be the first time that I went to a Derby match and thought that I might come home wondering what formation(s) they played. I suppose that it may catch out the opposition when we change during the game. 

I'm a qualified football coach and taught PE at Secondary and now Primary schools. I generally used the diamond in my school football teams as it suits youth football. That is why i know it so well.

[Rampage]

Very clear post Ambitious. Are our players smart enough and disciplined enough to make these changes and keep to them or will they still part like the Red Sea when someone is confused. At the end of this evening we will know if the defence is any more organised and protected with Baird and Thorne playing we hope.For me, Hendrick does not do enough in midfield or attack except when we are hammering a team and he  has plenty of time and space.

[Rampage]

I'm a qualified football coach and taught PE at Secondary and now Primary schools. I generally used the diamond in my school football teams as it suits youth football. That is why i know it so well.

Well done sage. No wonder I enjoy reading your posts.

[sage]

Well done sage. No wonder I enjoy reading your posts.

i will mark your posts later. C- so far. Must do better. 

[May Contain Nuts]

Rampage turns up in the Pointy Room baring a gift for Sage

 

 

 

[Rampage]

I used to teach Biology up to A level. In fairness, most of my school reports said that I could or should do better but this is my first C- in an otherwise glittering career.

i will mark your posts later. C- so far. Must do better. 

.