Non-Derby County games thread

[Leicester Ram]

Look at the last day of the 2011/2012 PL and tell me it's predictable.

Then look at the CL,last year, and tell me Tikka Takka is unbeatable.

Now watch every single one of Spains games from this summer and stay awake.

[mcsilks]

Stats do not lie and there is a reason why the Premiership is the most watched league in the world.

It's the most exciting.

Spanish football is played at a slower pace with less blood and thunder. The Spanish League is every but as predictable as the Premiership. Probably more so actually as at least you have 3 or 4 teams challenging at the top of the Prem.

The only way any team will topple Man City, Chelsea or Man Utd in the Premiership is if they get super rich owners and the same can be said in La Liga. Bris states that Barca rely on youth. I wouldn't say they quite rely on it. Yes, they have a great youth set up and most of their players have graduated from it but they have still spent more money than any in that league on new players recently.

The top four will change. I think Leicester City may well be the next big thing as they have super, super rich owners. They just need to get up.

[Alex W]

The reason we have a bigger fanbase is because we house more nationalities in the league, a few of the top English clubs have a higher than usual fanbase in Asia (bringing in God knows how many shirt sales each year) and the pace of the football is alot quicker than La Liga, which can put some people off. La Liga is an excellent league, a little less predictable even if that's atleast for the lower half of the table, everyone knows it's either Barca's or Real's, but the rest of the league is still interesting.

The fact that few people on average know many of the teams set-up or who plays for them and where doesn't help. With QPR v Stoke for example, that's not a match where you'd think "Ooh, cracking game, should be a belter", but if you put that up against lets say Granada v Espanyol, I suspect around 85% of English fans would pick the QPR match. The Espanyol game would have the far superior football on show, but people will pick the PL match because it's what they know they'll enjoy, with the other game many fans wouldn't be able to name a player from each side, nevermind interpret how the sides would set up and how the game might play out. People watch what they know, if the Spanish game was as well broadcast as the English game and fans had an understanding of those two sides and knew the players, their league standing (and so on) you'd see alot more people getting involved in watching the league. As it is, alot of fans would right that game of as simply being another Spanish game, slow and uninteresting to them.

Another problem for La Liga for many people, myself included, is often the style of football and the theatrics promoted there. I personally stand on the side of the fence that detests going down under any challenge unless it's a blatant foul or you're simply going down naturally under a challenge. The going down under any touch and genuine diving that goes on I personally can't stand, though i'm well aware that they both happen over here too. It's just something I can't stand to see, and given how common it is in Spain, it puts me off.

This is not a chance to start that whole debate again here by the way about whether it's right or wrong, it's smart to go down if caught, but I would rather my player never went down unless under a challenge naturally. You'd lose points, it's be tactically stupid of you as you could lose being awarded key decisions this way, but it's what I like to see, personally. The 'shining light' of fair play and honest calls on a situation even if it's detrimental to your cause etc, that's the stuff I like to see. So Spain isn't the easiest watch for me. People have different viewpoints on that and it's fine, all comes down to your personal choice.

I believe the main hold-back in terms of Spain becoming widely watched is the speed of the game, and the possession side to Spanish football. Most people like to see attacking football, speedy attacks and counter attacks and so on. While Spain does this, in large the game is alot slower and though technically superior to our game (and far and away superior to some of sides in the PL currently) it's not the biggest crowd pleaser if it's not your 'flavour' of match to watch. I can enjoy the matches, I watch them often, trying to keep up-to-date with who's where and how each side is set-up, but I can't say i'm ever truly enthralled in a match very often. I still enjoy the matches and some of the attacks you can't help but applaud given how perfect some of the passing can be, even from some of the lower sides, personally i've had my eye on R.C.D Mallorca recently and their rise up the table has been great to watch, but overall I watch games less with excitement and more an acceptance of the fantastic skill on offer, rather than being on the edge of my seat, though sometimes i'm caught up in a game if it's a surprise result or a real end-to-end match.

There are many reasons why La Liga is not as watched, but it has nothing to do with the PL being the "best league in the world", which is entirely down to personal opinion. More so the amount of foreign talent in the PL giving us bigger viewing audiences abroad, the difference in style across the league (teams having their own independant twists on staying up etc) and the speed of the game in general. I like La Liga, not enough to become a huge fan or become very invested in the league, but it's a good league.

Now the Bundesliga, there's a league I like.....

(Feck me I wrote alot! Feel free to ignore all of that folks, it's probably over-indulgant ******** anyway)

[Bris Vegas]

Stats do not lie and there is a reason why the Premiership is the most watched league in the world.

It's the most exciting.

Spanish football is played at a slower pace with less blood and thunder. The Spanish League is every but as predictable as the Premiership. Probably more so actually as at least you have 3 or 4 teams challenging at the top of the Prem.

The only way any team will topple Man City, Chelsea or Man Utd in the Premiership is if they get super rich owners and the same can be said in La Liga. Bris states that Barca rely on youth. I wouldn't say they quite rely on it. Yes, they have a great youth set up and most of their players have graduated from it but they have still spent more money than any in that league on new players recently.

The top four will change. I think Leicester City may well be the next big thing as they have super, super rich owners. They just need to get up.

Again, there are flaws to why it's the most watched.. Firstly it's the only country in Europe that has a majoir league where foreigners dominate English based players... There are more foreigners in the PL that English players, you won't find that anywhere else..

Also, like Alex mentions, the TV deals associated to these clubs broadcasted around the world is because of the foreign players.. Not because the league is good.. Here in Mexico, Manchester United is shown every week due to Chicharito, Fulham before with Salcido, and if you want proof that they follow fellow Mexicans they show every Ajaccio game, a team 80% of all football fans have probably never heard of.. Just top follow Ochoa (Goalkeeper).. I see so many Man Utd shirts here with Chicharito on the back, his popularity has gained Man Utd millions..

Man Utd have so many fans in Asia, do you honestly believe Sun Ji Park was a good enough player to be regularly playing for them? He was a shirt seller, and a major one at that.. I can't remember what game it was, but there was a PL game between two less fancied clubs that was broadcasted in Korea simply because two players were playing against eachother..

You say Spain is less paced.. It isn't, that myth doesn't imply along the floor passing.. La Liga clubs pass the ball far faster than certain PL clubs along the floor.. It's simply the PL is more direct, it's 100mph hoofing from one end to the other.. I read somewhere a manager quoting that in England it only takes 7 passes to score a goal.. In Spain, giving the ball away is criminal, therefore they naturally protect it and build through midfield.. But this doesn't mean the passes are any slower.. Some say it's boring keeping possession, I find aimless hoofing boring.. Everton vs QPR today was dire..

Real Madrid have spent far more than Barca.. But both recieve their own TV deals, they both recieve more money than the rest..

The PL has 3 teams that challenge for the title.. La Liga looks like it will have 3.. Let's see how many challenge the CL places and relegation spots in both leagues come the end of the season.. I'll slap any money on that going into the last few games La Liga has so much more riding on the important positions than the PL..

[Alex W]

You say Spain is less paced.. It isn't, that myth doesn't imply along the floor passing.. La Liga clubs pass the ball far faster than certain PL clubs along the floor.. It's simply the PL is more direct, it's 100mph hoofing from one end to the other.. I read somewhere a manager quoting that in England it only takes 7 passes to score a goal.. In Spain, giving the ball away is criminal, therefore they naturally protect it and build through midfield.. But this doesn't mean the passes are any slower.. Some say it's boring keeping possession, I find aimless hoofing boring.. Everton vs QPR today was dire..

The attacks are just as pacey, often more so than the PL, with some teams in Spain, it's the possession game and the general tempo of the game when the teams aren't right at that moment going for it, whether that be playing a defensive game or probing for a chance to create that fans don't adhere to well.

As you say, hoofing it forwards isn't great to watch but when two sides are throwing the ball forwards however they can, whether that be long ball, wingers going for it with no real direction of what they're attempting to do etc, the quick match tempo is pretty constant. In Spain, as you say, giving the ball away is a much bigger issue than here, hence why the teams are careful and pick their moments. As at PP, backpasses are greeted with groans and curses, the average English fan for some reason can't agree with that type of football, or atleast they dislike watching it. Which is foolish, atleast in terms of gameplay, but perhaps that's simply not the type of game the public in this country likes to watch.

The nature of the Spanish game gives the 'feel' that the game is slower, as teams probe for a look in, wheras over here we're far more direct in our attempts to score, meaning almost constant attacking play, even if much of it is unsuccessful. Tempo is the key with that, rather than the speed of the game as I said, moreover the type of chances created in either league and how the game plays out because of that. I believe that's what he was trying to say, and what I should've explained better in my post, in all probability.

[mcsilks]

Again, there are flaws to why it's the most watched.. Firstly it's the only country in Europe that has a majoir league where foreigners dominate English based players... There are more foreigners in the PL that English players, you won't find that anywhere else..

Also, like Alex mentions, the TV deals associated to these clubs broadcasted around the world is because of the foreign players.. Not because the league is good.. Here in Mexico, Manchester United is shown every week due to Chicharito, Fulham before with Salcido, and if you want proof that they follow fellow Mexicans they show every Ajaccio game, a team 80% of all football fans have probably never heard of.. Just top follow Ochoa (Goalkeeper).. I see so many Man Utd shirts here with Chicharito on the back, his popularity has gained Man Utd millions..

Man Utd have so many fans in Asia, do you honestly believe Sun Ji Park was a good enough player to be regularly playing for them? He was a shirt seller, and a major one at that.. I can't remember what game it was, but there was a PL game between two less fancied clubs that was broadcasted in Korea simply because two players were playing against eachother..

You say Spain is less paced.. It isn't, that myth doesn't imply along the floor passing.. La Liga clubs pass the ball far faster than certain PL clubs along the floor.. It's simply the PL is more direct, it's 100mph hoofing from one end to the other.. I read somewhere a manager quoting that in England it only takes 7 passes to score a goal.. In Spain, giving the ball away is criminal, therefore they naturally protect it and build through midfield.. But this doesn't mean the passes are any slower.. Some say it's boring keeping possession, I find aimless hoofing boring.. Everton vs QPR today was dire..

Real Madrid have spent far more than Barca.. But both recieve their own TV deals, they both recieve more money than the rest..

The PL has 3 teams that challenge for the title.. La Liga looks like it will have 3.. Let's see how many challenge the CL places and relegation spots in both leagues come the end of the season.. I'll slap any money on that going into the last few games La Liga has so much more riding on the important positions than the PL..

La Liga will have two challengers and those two will have lost fewer and drawn fewer than the challengers in the Premiership.

It is the most watched because it is the most entertaining. We all know that it is not as good technically as some of Europe's other leagues but believe me, ot's only the minority of football fans that want to watch teams passing each other off the park. Most prefer to watch a few passes mixed up with some poor ones mixed up with some long balls. I'm not saying I do.

Spain were accused of being boring by the British press. Boring Boring Spain. Pass, pass, pass, pass, pass. But little end product.

That pretty football didn't get them glory in the Champions League did it.

Of course Park was bought to sell shirts. We all know that but Manchester United are the biggest footballing export. Over here in Japan, the public get the choice to watch either La Liga or the Premiership and there are virtually no Japanese players in the Premiership or La Liga apart from the odd excepetion.

So what is the most watched?

It's the Premiership by a country mile. No one wants to watch La Liga.

It's the same in Korea. The Premiership is the one they all want.

[Bris Vegas]

La Liga will have two challengers and those two will have lost fewer and drawn fewer than the challengers in the Premiership.

It is the most watched because it is the most entertaining. We all know that it is not as good technically as some of Europe's other leagues but believe me, ot's only the minority of football fans that want to watch teams passing each other off the park. Most prefer to watch a few passes mixed up with some poor ones mixed up with some long balls. I'm not saying I do.

Spain were accused of being boring by the British press. Boring Boring Spain. Pass, pass, pass, pass, pass. But little end product.

That pretty football didn't get them glory in the Champions League did it.

Of course Park was bought to sell shirts. We all know that but Manchester United are the biggest footballing export. Over here in Japan, the public get the choice to watch either La Liga or the Premiership and there are virtually no Japanese players in the Premiership or La Liga apart from the odd excepetion.

So what is the most watched?

It's the Premiership by a country mile. No one wants to watch La Liga.

It's the same in Korea. The Premiership is the one they all want.

That pretty football got them a record 5 straight semi-finals and named one of the best football teams in the history of the game.. Pass pass pass is far better and effective than hoof hoof hoof..

There are far more asian players in the PL than there are in La Liga.. What little end product do you talk of? Spain had the most shots, created the most chances and scored the most goals in The Euros.. The people calling it boring are idiots and know nothing about football, because their reasoning is flawed by basic facts, they just wanted to see a new winner.. They were bored of Spain winning, nothing else.. The same can be said for other sports, I find Man Utd boring, but as a football perspective they play good football, I've just accustomed to them winning and I'm bored of it..

The Japanese public have had the PL thrown at them because of the diversity and number of foreign players.. The PL has appealed to the whole world, because of the people there, not the football being played.. Plus, what PL games are we talking about here.. No-one cares about anyone outside the top 4, you won't ever convince me that people are interested in following lower PL sides unless it contains a player from that country..

Do you know how many nationalities make up the top 4? (Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd, Man City).. We can make a list if you like.. Belgium, Nigeria, England, Ivory Coast, France, Brazil, Spain, Senegal, Ghana, Scotland, Ireland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Serbia, Germany, Italy, Denmark, Holland, Wales, Ecuador, Ireland, Mexico, Chile, Norway, Japan, Romania, N.I., Argentina, Bosnia, Sweden, Poland, Finland, Switzerland, Russia, Morrocco..

35 different countries just from this seasons squads make up the top 4.. How many from the top clubs in La Liga.. Less than half of that..

The PL is littered with foreigners and foreigners all over the world.. La Liga is 75% based Spanish players.. Why do you think the PL appeals more to a country whose idol plays in the PL than La Liga.. Despite being the better and more interesting league La Liga outside of Barca and Real Madrid other clubs suffer from a lack of foreign players, nothing to do with their footballing style.. Athletico Bilboa had an awesome season last season playing excellent attractive football under Bielsa, but no-one took any interest in them until they reached the EL final? Why? Lack of foreigners.. Hardly anyone outside of Spain had even heard of them..

[mcsilks]

Bris, IMO the Premiership is the most exciting to watch. The foreigners make it watchable. They are the reason for it's popularity and it is them that make it the most exciting and the most unpredictable.

You don't get this with La Liga. It's 11 mostly Spanish players against 11 mostly Spanish players trying to play the same passing style. It is not as exciting for the viewer and the statistics absolutely back me up.

Take the foreigners out of the Premiership and you have the Championship pretty much.

English football is a mile away technically from Spanish and I don't deny this but I prefer to celebrate what we have. A fantastically exportable product that is broadcast to 212 countries and watched by over 1 billion people.

And no, I'm not just talking about the top four either. I'm reglarly traveling to Korea, China, Thailand, India and many other Asian countries and in everyone I visit you see people wearing the shirts of Norwich, Sunderland, Wigan, Villa and the like. They're mad for it and no matter what the team, if it's Premiership football they're glued to their screens.

[MuespachRam]

Just for the record....

Barca and madrid will win la ligue for the next 20 years.

United, city, chelsea will win the dogshite league for the next 20 years

No one has a clue who will win the championship this year, next year or the one after...

[EastKentRam]

The Championship is the best, closely followed by the Bundesliga.

Although im starting to think Munich and Dortmund may turn into the Barca and Real of that league.

Im hoping that doesnt happen as they've got a great set up over there the Germs.

[Leicester Ram]

Bris, you have to consider people who DON'T know football. They aren't going to watch a La Liga game and go 'wow, they've had 74% possession for an hour and 6 shots, all with a cm up front! Cor Blimey, what a treat' they're going to turn over to Fulham v West Ham, where there's just been a red card and a penalty because Steve Sidwell was hanging on to Andy Carrolls ponytail for dear life in the box. It's an exciting league! You can just tune in and watch a Stoke throw-in cause a riot in the box, Fellaini get his fluffy head to an inch perfect Baines cross, the Demba's scoring two a-piece, Kevin Nolan doing that duck arm celebration, Shlong scoring a tap in for WBA in the last minute while Adrian Chiles goes ******* mental, Rickie Lambert break the net with a thunderous penalty, David Dunn attempt a rabona, Taarabt nutmeg Titus Bramble, Aston Villa being just generally *****, Derby fail miserably, Suarez dive around like an idiot (oh ****, you do get that in La Liga), a Grant Holt header giving Delia a jolt between the legs, Peter Crouch in general, Sessegnon dancing through a defence, Ballotelli getting sent off just after he scored a wonder goal, crazy transfer deadline days which almost always include Yossi Benayoun, Lennon whizzing past some old LB, QPR go ahead at Man City to stay up and then lose for City to win the title but still stay up! The PL has classic moments and classic games, Newcastle coming from 4-0 down with a thunderous Tiote volley.

For the general public, it's a shed load more entertaining than tikka-takka.

Anyway, you don't get any Juan Mata's or Santi Cazorla's in La Liga do you!? Or Fernando Torres' for that matter.

[Hucknall Ram]

a Grant Holt header giving Delia a jolt between the legs,

That sir just made me spit my coffee out! 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' /> 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />

[-JW-]

Celtic concede in the last minute losing 2-1 to Barca.

[Alph]

Celtic concede in the last minute losing 2-1 to Barca.

1 shot on target, 1 goal. Incredible how teams don't waste chances v Barcelona.

Kris Commons and Gary Hooper might of made the wrong choice to not be playing for Derby.

[davenportram]

1 shot on target, 1 goal. Incredible how teams don't waste chances v Barcelona.

Kris Commons and Gary Hooper might of made the wrong choice to not be playing for Derby.

And that was a deflection

[Bris Vegas]

Incredible how the BBC twist things all the time regarding Barca..

Apparently Celtic were unlucky and deserved a draw.. Despite having 1 shot on target and 4 in total throughtout the whole game and 28% possession compared to Barca who had 26 shots on goal, 16 on target and forced Forster into one of the best games of his life..

Yet Shakhtar fully deserved to beat Chelsea despite only having 2 more shots than them and 54% possession in favour..

I'm also amazed at how clinical teams are against Barca or how many goals they concede from set pieces.... Deportivo scored 4 at the weekend against them.. One was a serious error from Valdes (suprised?) from a corner, one was a perfect freekick from 30 yards out, another was a penalty that wasn't and another was a freak own goal from Jordi Alba..

For a leftback Alba has scored 3 in his last 4.. Not a bad record that..

[mcsilks]

Incredible how the BBC twist things all the time regarding Barca..

Apparently Celtic were unlucky and deserved a draw.. Despite having 1 shot on target and 4 in total throughtout the whole game and 28% possession compared to Barca who had 26 shots on goal, 16 on target and forced Forster into one of the best games of his life..

Yet Shakhtar fully deserved to beat Chelsea despite only having 2 more shots than them and 54% possession in favour..

I'm also amazed at how clinical teams are against Barca or how many goals they concede from set pieces.... Deportivo scored 4 at the weekend against them.. One was a serious error from Valdes (suprised?) from a corner, one was a perfect freekick from 30 yards out, another was a penalty that wasn't and another was a freak own goal from Jordi Alba..

For a leftback Alba has scored 3 in his last 4.. Not a bad record that..

Isn't it possible to defend so valiently that you are deserving of a draw. Do stats really have to be thrown into every equation?

If you score one more goal than the opposition then you deserve to beat them. If you don't score one more goal then you don't.

Celtic were unlucky as they held out for so long that they felt they nearly had that point.

While I have your attention Bris, there are two things I would like to ask you.

Do you still think draws are of no value? Surely Derbys win and last minute goal against Ipswich owed a lot to their remaining unbeaten in the previous 4 games.

And what of your nonsense about Derbys failure to score in the last 15 minutes of games? Have they put that to bed now?

[Bris Vegas]

Isn't it possible to defend so valiently that you are deserving of a draw. Do stats really have to be thrown into every equation?

If you score one more goal than the opposition then you seserve to beat them. If you don't score one more goal then you don't.

Celtic were unlucky as they held out for so long that they felt they nearly had that point.

No.. The better team doesn't always deserve to win.. If it did, then you mayaswell throw out any analysis or stats from a game because they would all become pointless.. The same with styles, you'd never be able to criticise or pick faults if whoever won regardless of how the game went is a deserved winner..

And no, I don't agree with defending valiently is rewarding of points.. I think the better team or attempts to score goals and create chances is rewarding of the points.. I don't condone the attitude of protecting leads rather than looking for more goals although in cup ties and one off games especially I can understand why they've done it..

I just think it's funny what happens to Celtic.. They went top the Nou Camp, made no attempt to try and score more goals when leading with 70 minutes to play, and ended up losing in the last minute so all that they did for those 70 minutes was pointless anyway.. Haha.. Shame..

Celtic were lucky that they weren't beat more comfortably.. Far more so than being 'unlucky' at not claiming a point.. A fair reflection would have been 4-0.. They were lucky they only conceded 2..

[mcsilks]

No.. The better team doesn't always deserve to win.. If it did, then you mayaswell throw out any analysis or stats from a game because they would all become pointless.. The same with styles, you'd never be able to criticise or pick faults if whoever won regardless of how the game went is a deserved winner..

And no, I don't agree with defending valiently is rewarding of points.. I think the better team or attempts to score goals and create chances is rewarding of the points.. I don't condone the attitude of protecting leads rather than looking for more goals although in cup ties and one off games especially I can understand why they've done it..

I just think it's funny what happens to Celtic.. They went top the Nou Camp, made no attempt to try and score more goals when leading with 70 minutes to play, and ended up losing in the last minute so all that they did for those 70 minutes was pointless anyway.. Haha.. Shame..

Celtic were lucky that they weren't beat more comfortably.. Far more so than being 'unlucky' at not claiming a point.. A fair reflection would have been 4-0.. They were lucky they only conceded 2..

Football is about attack and defence. Each team starts off with one point. What is wrong with setting your stall out to defend what you have?

Celtic know they are the inferior opponents and to attempt a win would be pointless. That is what they would end up with. No points and a 4-0 scoreline or worse. So they decide to come to the Nou Camp and preserve what they have.

If they manage to do that for ninenty minutes then they are deserving of a draw. If they don't then their opponents are deserving of a win regardless of stats.

[Bris Vegas]

Football is about attack and defence. Each team starts off with one point. What is wrong with setting your stall out to defend what you have?

Celtic know they are the inferior opponents and to attempt a win would be pointless. That is what they would end up with. No points and a 4-0 scoreline or worse. So they decide to come to the Nou Camp and preserve what they have.

If they manage to do that for ninenty minutes then they are deserving of a draw. If they don't then their opponents are deserving of a win regardless of stats.

Such a terrible attitude to have..

Football is a game, or should be a game, where the idea is to win and score more goals than the opposition.. If it happens that they both cancel eachother out and it's a draw, well fair enough..

But to have the attitude of going into the game making very little attempt to win is just ridiculous, and it cheats the fans who pay good money to travel and watch their team..

I can understand in cup games or one off games where a draw is all that is needed, you can defend for your lives knowing a draw would keep you up then that is the objective.. On the other hand I would also like to away goals rule to be wiped out of the CL so that you don't get one team defending from the off for 90 minutes and effectively ruining what should be a grand show of two heavyweights going at it..

Cletic deserved nothing, and we're lucky to make Barca wait so long to secure victory..