The Ukraine War

[Crewton]

"The UN has said its investigators have concluded that Russia committed war crimes in Ukraine, including bombings of civilian areas, numerous executions, torture and horrific sexual violence. The team of three independent experts had launched initial investigations looking at the areas of Kyiv, Chernihiv, Kharkiv and Sumy regions, where they were “struck by the large number of executions in the areas that we visited”, and the frequent “visible signs of executions on bodies, such as hands tied behind backs, gunshot wounds to the head and slit throats”.

[Tamworthram]

6 hours ago, Alpha said:

I managed to look on twitter and I assume we're talking about the general state of prisoners Russia have released? Malnourished? Looks pretty bad.

I did see much of these "brave defenders of Mariupol". The brave Azov warriors. These defenders of Ukraine should be given medals. "Heroes" they say. I saw a few posting the emblem of the Azov Regiment. The Wolfsangel. Typically adopted and adapted by right wing Ukrainian neo Nazis that terrorise, torture, rape and execute Pro Russian supporters in East Ukraine. 

This is a group that the US was going to, and later rejected to train. A group that many considered a terrorist organisation. 

Twitter however has to follow the script. And so they're brave defenders of Ukraine. With a nazi flag. 

That's Twitter. 

As you say, that is Twitter (or rather Twitter users) for you. The story here should be about the apparent condition of released prisoners of war not about how “heroic” their unit was or about the atrocities that unit may have committed in the past. 

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

It feels like there is literally nothing I, or some others, could say that would get even one shred of acceptance from a couple of posters here - who seem intent on just posting the "Putin is mad and need to be destroyed" line. Given this is a football forum, and I will never meet nor care for those posters (plus we're just going round and round in circles) I will try to precis 65 pages of comments and then resign myself to the conclusion that some just don't want to see (or are just here for a bit of an argument, and that's not really for me).

1: There are many reasons, on all sides, why this conflict escalated - not just since Feb 24th but at least since 1991. Unless we all take time to understand those reasons we cannot get to a conclusion. Putin, and Russia, have fair (evidenced) reason giong back decades on how (in particular) the US has interfered in their domestic and regional affairs. They feel this is the culmination of all of that, and while their actions are wrong their reasons are not.

2: Ukraine has been far from free of blame in that. America has been actively supporting the aggravation of the situation, way back to the fall of the Berlin Wall.

3: War is horrific, and should be avoided at all costs. Here and now, today, both sides are causing horrific events to occur that leave peoples lives ruined, and many losing them. Both sides.

4: Resolution will not come from escalation, and the consequences of escalation are beyond comprehension if pushed there.

5: Involving Britain in a proxy conflict - with all the economic challenges we have on us - is just madness. All parties should be focusing our efforts on an acceptable (which may involve compromise) resoution that focuses on de-escalation, not escalation, of the conflict.

6: Putin is, largely, popular in Russia. We may not agree with that conclusion but it is true - you don't just go in and take out the leader of a nuclear power without there being colossal consequences, both to Russians and to everyone globally. Besides the most extreme of examples (e.g. WWII) it never works.

Conclusion, step back from escalation, recognize we can only advance if we understand, allow the people who live in disputed regions to decide who they want to govern them. Support transition to (lkely fragile) peace. Stop creating (to quote another poster) Bond villains for the benefit of positioning and allegiance.

Don't worry replying - I'm going to leave this 'discussion' now for others to solve a situation that brings us as close to nuclear war as we have ever been. I'm sure you'll work it out. 

Not that we can influence affairs but, one thing we, on this forum, should also do is accept that we are being fed propaganda along the truth and some of the unpalatable truths are being hidden from us or not reported fully. That goes for both sides and relates to everything from the causes of the war, desired outcomes, threats faced, victories claimed and atrocities committed. 

[Crewton]

I hope we can all agree that the way to resolve disputes with your neighbours is through dialogue, using mediators where appropriate, and not shinning over their fence and sh*tting on their patio. Once you've done the latter, your justifications are meaningless. 

[Crewton]

9 hours ago, Alpha said:

I managed to look on twitter and I assume we're talking about the general state of prisoners Russia have released? Malnourished? Looks pretty bad.

I did see much of these "brave defenders of Mariupol". The brave Azov warriors. These defenders of Ukraine should be given medals. "Heroes" they say. I saw a few posting the emblem of the Azov Regiment. The Wolfsangel. Typically adopted and adapted by right wing Ukrainian neo Nazis that terrorise, torture, rape and execute Pro Russian supporters in East Ukraine. 

This is a group that the US was going to, and later rejected to train. A group that many considered a terrorist organisation. 

Twitter however has to follow the script. And so they're brave defenders of Ukraine. With a nazi flag. 

That's Twitter. 

Putin and the puppet regimes of Dombass, Luhansk and Crimea use the Azov Batallion as an excuse to justify everything, the same way Putin and Assad used the White Helmets to justify everything they did in Syria. Much of the evidence against them is apocryphal and even the accusations are relatively limited in number compared to the body of evidence that international organisations are compiling against Russian forces. It's also remarkable that some people seem surprised that the armed forces of a country that is being invaded might occasionally use questionable tactics to defend and liberate their country, as if the role of aggressor and defender carry equal responsibility.

The hard-left in this country are caught in a trap of their own making : it's hard to condemn interference in the internal politics of one country by "the West" while seeking to justify the same actions by one of their traditional icons without looking like massive hypocrites. Either sovereignty is sacrosanct or it isn't. Which is it?

 

[Ramarena]

11 hours ago, Alpha said:

I managed to look on twitter and I assume we're talking about the general state of prisoners Russia have released? Malnourished? Looks pretty bad.

I did see much of these "brave defenders of Mariupol". The brave Azov warriors. These defenders of Ukraine should be given medals. "Heroes" they say. I saw a few posting the emblem of the Azov Regiment. The Wolfsangel. Typically adopted and adapted by right wing Ukrainian neo Nazis that terrorise, torture, rape and execute Pro Russian supporters in East Ukraine. 

This is a group that the US was going to, and later rejected to train. A group that many considered a terrorist organisation. 

Twitter however has to follow the script. And so they're brave defenders of Ukraine. With a nazi flag. 

That's Twitter. 

The Azov stuff here and elsewhere needs some context.

Yes the Azov battalion has had links to far right groups with Nazi ideology, sadly many militaries do, but Azov is different and probably a step further than many given it’s history.

Historically it’s origins are in a group that sided with the Nazi’s during WW2, but then turned on the Nazi’s to work with the Allies. Hence where it’s symbols come from.

The group then returned to prominence in 2014, trying to defend Ukraine from Russian separatists, their movement grew and did contain some prople with pretty illiberal views in leadership positions, hence the Wests caution in backing them.

This continued till 2019, their moment grew and they tried to break out into politics. They were roundly rejected at the ballot box by the public, didn’t win a single seat! (even a heavy defeat in their hometown of Mariupol).

Since then the Ukrainian government has been working on moderating them with varying degrees of success, whilst needing them as an essential southern force to help defend their borders. 

The political failure of 2019 led to a large fragmentation within the group. In 2020, Odnorozhenko a major far right/Nazi player left the group and there was large scale in fighting almost remaining members, further damaging public opinion in wider Ukraine. Well until they we’re needed to defend the realm in March.

Ultimately these guys were/are necessary and many new recruits who had no Nazi interests joined in the early part of this year, (further diluting the original make up of the group), to defend the south of the country and today many are dead or captured. 

Did they represent a danger to Russia before the conflict? no

Did they represent a danger to Russian speakers in now invaded areas? Yes, in terms of defending Ukrainian territory.

Do they represent wider Ukrainian views? No I wouldn’t say so, every country has its problems with the far right, even the UK. The general public as I understand it, sees them as a military unit, not a political movement.

What their future is? Its unclear. They have been pretty much decimated compared to their membership of a few years ago.

Ironically, whilst  telling us they were going to eradicate the Nazi’s and succeeding (if you consider Azov to be entirely comprised of Nazi’s) Russia’s army have committed sins far worse than of those they claimed they were wiping out.

[Alph]

I don't think I've ever tried to excuse Putin of what he's done. Just some of his concerns are well founded. His reaction is not.

But I think reading what you gents have said about the Azov Battalion it's clear we will never agree.

Putin can't be forgiven for the scale of this. For the massacres and executions. But still, that doesn't mean his concerns about the likes of Azov should be dismissed as an excuse. They're not heroes. 

Only in war does the line seem blurry as they look to have bolstered their ranks with anyone willing to defend Ukraine. That doesn't excuse what they are and what they've done. They certainly weren't considered heroes by America and Europe pre invasion!

I don't really want to sound like I'm defending Putin by going on about this Neo Nazi group with their Wolfsangel insignia and their activities. It's not hard to dig up what they're about and make up your own mind. If you think they're the good guys then so be it. Imo they belong in the same place Putin belongs. 

[Archied]

I see European council chief says eu should grant asylum to anyone fleeing putins press gangs , why no such compassion for Ukrainian men press ganged?

 

[Crewton]

1 minute ago, Archied said:

I see European council chief says eu should grant asylum to anyone fleeing putins press gangs , why no such compassion for Ukrainian men press ganged?

 

Any Ukrainian of whatever sex fleeing the war is entitled to claim asylum already. 

More concerning is the real possibility of Ukrainian males in Russian occupied areas now being press-ganged into the Russian military and forced to fight against their own people. 

[Ramarena]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

I see European council chief says eu should grant asylum to anyone fleeing putins press gangs , why no such compassion for Ukrainian men press ganged?

 

Two points.

- There’s a bit of a difference between, a country that’s fighting for its survival during an invasion, conscripting men out of desperation to save their home. And an invading army, who’ve been beaten back, conscripting men to go to die in a battle they don’t have any skin in. One group have something to fight for, the others don’t.

After the initial invasion and people realised Ukraine wasn’t going to collapse in the first few weeks, Ukraine ended up having more volunteers than it could train and ended up turning people away.

 - as Crewton said, many Ukrainians of both sexes got out. At the start of the war I believe Poland alone was hosting almost 4 million Ukrainian refugees. Fortunately around half of those were able to return home after the Russians were beaten back for Kyiv.

[Ramarena]

6 hours ago, Alpha said:

I don't think I've ever tried to excuse Putin of what he's done. Just some of his concerns are well founded. His reaction is not.

But I think reading what you gents have said about the Azov Battalion it's clear we will never agree.

Putin can't be forgiven for the scale of this. For the massacres and executions. But still, that doesn't mean his concerns about the likes of Azov should be dismissed as an excuse. They're not heroes. 

Only in war does the line seem blurry as they look to have bolstered their ranks with anyone willing to defend Ukraine. That doesn't excuse what they are and what they've done. They certainly weren't considered heroes by America and Europe pre invasion!

I don't really want to sound like I'm defending Putin by going on about this Neo Nazi group with their Wolfsangel insignia and their activities. It's not hard to dig up what they're about and make up your own mind. If you think they're the good guys then so be it. Imo they belong in the same place Putin belongs. 

I’m fairly ambivalent on Azov. Ultimately it doesn’t matter what you, I or someone on Twitter says.

Ukrainian’s will decide who their hero’s are/aren’t, and rightly so.

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Ramarena said:

I’m fairly ambivalent on Azov. Ultimately it doesn’t matter what you, I or someone on Twitter says.

Ukrainian’s will decide who their hero’s are/aren’t, and rightly so.

Can't argue with that ?

[Archied]

16 hours ago, Ramarena said:

Two points.

- There’s a bit of a difference between, a country that’s fighting for its survival during an invasion, conscripting men out of desperation to save their home. And an invading army, who’ve been beaten back, conscripting men to go to die in a battle they don’t have any skin in. One group have something to fight for, the others don’t.

After the initial invasion and people realised Ukraine wasn’t going to collapse in the first few weeks, Ukraine ended up having more volunteers than it could train and ended up turning people away.

 - as Crewton said, many Ukrainians of both sexes got out. At the start of the war I believe Poland alone was hosting almost 4 million Ukrainian refugees. Fortunately around half of those were able to return home after the Russians were beaten back for Kyiv.

Not a jot of difference to those it is forced on , easy for those outside looking in to make one somehow better than the other , 

if someone does not want to pick up a gun to kill or be killed , forcing them is wrong wrong wrong , why is it wrong for someone to say a piece of land and a flag is not enough for them to kill or die for and they would choose to get out ?

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

Not a jot of difference to those it is forced on , easy for those outside looking in to make one somehow better than the other , 

if someone does not want to pick up a gun to kill or be killed , forcing them is wrong wrong wrong , why is it wrong for someone to say a piece of land and a flag is not enough for them to kill or die for and they would choose to get out ?

I think there would be a big difference to how someone would feel being forced to take up arms against their fellow countrymen compared to being forced to shoot at the invaders. You also seem to think that this has been a widespread phenomenon on the Ukrainian side, and that those prevented from escaping the country are in reality being forced to fight and kill, rather than, say, take up non-combative roles, like many of the young women of Ukraine are doing. Where's your evidence for that?

 

[Ramarena]

3 hours ago, Archied said:

Not a jot of difference to those it is forced on , easy for those outside looking in to make one somehow better than the other , 

if someone does not want to pick up a gun to kill or be killed , forcing them is wrong wrong wrong , why is it wrong for someone to say a piece of land and a flag is not enough for them to kill or die for and they would choose to get out ?

Bit contradictory no?

Saying someone from the outside gets no say, then in the following sentence having a say from the outside!

Look, I agree with your premise that in 2022 conscription shouldn’t be a thing.

Sadly countries with imperialistic ambitions, like Russia, USA, etc are forcing other countries into extreme circumstances.

Ukraine didn’t even have the option of choosing whether to declare war or not, it was invaded.

When a country is plunged into a desperate situation like that, I can understand why extreme decisions are made. 

Oddly we seem to looking at Ukraine’s actions on a macro level, whilst ignoring the vile atrocities of the invaders. It’s almost as if this is intentional!

[Ramarena]

52 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I think there would be a big difference to how someone would feel being forced to take up arms against their fellow countrymen compared to being forced to shoot at the invaders. You also seem to think that this has been a widespread phenomenon on the Ukrainian side, and that those prevented from escaping the country are in reality being forced to fight and kill, rather than, say, take up non-combative roles, like many of the young women of Ukraine are doing. Where's your evidence for that?

 

As I mention in my post below yours.

In some areas there seems to be a macro level focus on the perceived negative things Ukraine does, whilst only giving a passing mention to the Russian war crimes. 

Sadly we’ve seen this tactic before and it works to a certain extent.

[Crewton]

5 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

As I mention in my post below yours.

In some areas there seems to be a macro level focus on the perceived negative things Ukraine does, whilst only giving a passing mention to the Russian war crimes. 

Sadly we’ve seen this tactic before and it works to a certain extent.

Yes, I noted your post, thanks. 

 

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Crewton said:

I think there would be a big difference to how someone would feel being forced to take up arms against their fellow countrymen compared to being forced to shoot at the invaders. You also seem to think that this has been a widespread phenomenon on the Ukrainian side, and that those prevented from escaping the country are in reality being forced to fight and kill, rather than, say, take up non-combative roles, like many of the young women of Ukraine are doing. Where's your evidence for that?

 

You think ,,,, I think differently, don’t know if you have kids but no way would I want my son forced to kill or be killed ,,,, 

no I most certainly don’t see it as more widespread on Ukrainian side than what is happening on the Russian side now , I point out the hypocrisy , no one ,repeat , no one should be forced to kill or be killed by ANYONE, wars would virtually come to an end if conscription was outlawed as a war crime 

[Archied]

1 hour ago, Ramarena said:

Bit contradictory no?

Saying someone from the outside gets no say, then in the following sentence having a say from the outside!

Look, I agree with your premise that in 2022 conscription shouldn’t be a thing.

Sadly countries with imperialistic ambitions, like Russia, USA, etc are forcing other countries into extreme circumstances.

Ukraine didn’t even have the option of choosing whether to declare war or not, it was invaded.

When a country is plunged into a desperate situation like that, I can understand why extreme decisions are made. 

Oddly we seem to looking at Ukraine’s actions on a macro level, whilst ignoring the vile atrocities of the invaders. It’s almost as if this is intentional!

I see the mad scramble to avoid having to participate in a war happening in Russia now just the same as I saw the mad scramble in Ukraine when this started , I despise war and war mongers no matter what side they are on and the only way I see wars becoming a think of the past is when the masses refuse to fight them for the greedy power hungry loons that through history keep appearing.

conscription is a war crime in my eyes 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Archied

[Crewton]

5 minutes ago, Archied said:

I see the mad scramble to avoid having to participate in a war happening in Russia now just the same as I saw the mad scramble in Ukraine when this started , I despise war and war mongers no matter what side they are on and the only way I see wars becoming a think of the past is when the masses refuse to fight them for the greedy power hungry loons that through history keep appearing.

conscription is a war crime in my eyes 

So your philosophy is basically just run away and let an aggressor do what they like?