F1 2022

[RadioactiveWaste]

Interesting point made here, if Perez crashed on purpose in Monaco and the team knew about it, doesn't that make them complicit? I'm sure Ferrari would have a thing or two to say about that. Perhaps the FIA as well.

At the time I thought it looked oddly convenient but probably looked away because I like Checo and love Checo getting one over Max which he did a few times at the start of the season.

Which places Brazil as still a bell end move by Verstappen but also puts a real damper on Perez and that Monaco win. And obviously, Horner and Marko knowing about it.

https://youtu.be/dMFaoPNqa7k

[Alph]

2 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Interesting point made here, if Perez crashed on purpose in Monaco and the team knew about it, doesn't that make them complicit? I'm sure Ferrari would have a thing or two to say about that. Perhaps the FIA as well.

At the time I thought it looked oddly convenient but probably looked away because I like Checo and love Checo getting one over Max which he did a few times at the start of the season.

Which places Brazil as still a bell end move by Verstappen but also puts a real damper on Perez and that Monaco win. And obviously, Horner and Marko knowing about it.

https://youtu.be/dMFaoPNqa7k

I think that Max thinks it's on purpose. I think Dutch journalists would think it's on purpose. 

Maybe it was. 

But we're saying Perez crashed on purpose to deny Max a potential faster lap when he was behind the Ferrari's already. That he then went to tell a man (Horner) who has pictures of Max around his house instead of his wife and kids. And that man not only kept hush but went on to ask Max to move over in Brazil. 

Or

A guy who behaves like a petulant child and is the Red Bull golden boy who never gives anything to anyone actually falsely believes Perez crashed on purpose. And refused team orders before (as it was clearly discussed) and during Brazil. He also must believe Perez crashing on purpose was hushed and kind of supported by RBR. 

I think one is a leap and the other is quite normal. Because Max has quite a reputation for tantrums, complaining, arguing, blaming and acting like a complete tool. 

He's great for the sport. His behaviour gives great TV. I just don't get why so many like him. Probably because he's not Lewis Hamilton. The guy is a knob head. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

It's the admitted to Horner and Marko and then it was hushed by the team part I find most of a stretch. If you're Checo and you dropped it on purpose, you're never going to say anything other than "oops I made a mistake getting on the power" because as soon as you do that you're in a compromised position and potential you're putting whoever you tell into that position.

The team and max might look at the data and believe that, but you're never going to say it. My take is they probably all understood on an unspoken basis that yeah, that Monaco crash was on purpose but, then Max has his spiteful revenge and makes it kind of obvious why.

Petty and spiteful, and for what? Just to let everyone know you hold a grudge. Well done.

He's probably going to defend Max's rivals as if he were bottas next season in a "here you go Charles, Lewis, George, Carlos,I'm a just gonna look after my tyres now" kind of way.

Edited November 15, 2022 by RadioactiveWaste

[RadioactiveWaste]

In other F1 news, Binotto is getting the boot at Ferrari, Fred Vassure from Sauber to take over from January.

Given that Ferrari clown memes are at saturation level and have been most of the season,you can understand why.

But, in his defence, for the first time in a generation Ferrari actually had a competitive car and strong driver line up which I now anticipate Ferrari managing to blow up somehow and convince Leclerc to look to leave.

[Andicis]

1 hour ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

In other F1 news, Binotto is getting the boot at Ferrari, Fred Vassure from Sauber to take over from January.

Given that Ferrari clown memes are at saturation level and have been most of the season,you can understand why.

But, in his defence, for the first time in a generation Ferrari actually had a competitive car and strong driver line up which I now anticipate Ferrari managing to blow up somehow and convince Leclerc to look to leave.

I think I read something earlier this year about one of Ferrari's issues being that more junior people were fearful of speaking out about a decision they knew was wrong due to the culture within the team. If that's the case, Binotto really lands with that responsibility. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

In exciting F1 news, the Mickster has been shown the fok smash door at Haas to be replaced by Nico Hulkenberg.

Driver who didn't do enough replaced by driver who will probably just do enough. It's hard to get excited about really, unless you're Hulkenberg momma.

As for Mick, seems harsh in terms of he's not been that bad and second half of this year was mostly looking alright, but, that's the case for so many drivers who get the cold treatment off F1. If he wasn't who he was (or his dad was basically) no one would be that upset.

 

[Alph]

Oof seems a touch harsh. 

But I like Hulkenberg because he's so unlucky. Feel sorry for him. So hopefully he can sneak a podium under those bizarre circumstances that you get a couple of times per season. 

[Comrade 86]

Have to laugh at Red Bull and all the Crashtappen fanboys. Desperately trying to imply it was an act of revenge for something that never happened, whilst ignoring the key role Checo has played in helping them get back to the top of the tree. Sadly, Checo is way too nice a guy to be at a toxic outfit like RB. Last weekend has cost the team a deal of support with folk finally acknowledging what a shady mob they are and Cashtappen's character fully exposed yet again.

Moving forwards, I'd love to see Lando at Mercedes once Lewis moves on, but Checo would be an excellent wingman for George if that is not a deal that can be made. Having the two young English lions buzzing Max like hornets on steroids would probably send Marko, Karen and the brat himself into meltdown. Things you'd love to see!

As for Abu Dhabi, it should be an absolute belter and I'm still hoping Hamilton can secure a win to maintain his record of winning at least one race in every season he's competed. In a difficult season, he's mostly kept his cool and seemed really happy for George too which I thought was a classy. I think the fire still burns bright and 2023 could be a season to remember as long as Red Bull don't 'accidentally' spend another 2 mill over the odds on hotdogs, rolls and mustard ?

[RadioactiveWaste]

I find the red bull statement entirely unconvincing. It was a radio miscommunication because that's what we have to say it was. My bottom it was.

Being the damage limitation PR person for RedBull Racing must be the second most stressful job next to being Ferrari team principal or anyone in Aston Martin not named stroll.

[Andicis]

These guys do know that we can listen to the radio messages don't they? It was well ahead of the final corner that Max was asked to switch position. That simply isn't true. They are talking about abuse online, as if Max's mother didn't accuse Checo of cheating on his wife on social media. 

[Andicis]

49 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Last weekend has cost the team a deal of support with folk finally acknowledging what a shady mob they are and Cashtappen's character fully exposed yet again.

I have to say, those people only just waking up to it now, how!? It's shouldn't have been evident for everyone for a long time now how toxic Verstappen, Horner and Helmut Marko are. 

[Comrade 86]

1 minute ago, Andicis said:

I have to say, those people only just waking up to it now, how!? It's shouldn't have been evident for everyone for a long time now how toxic Verstappen, Horner and Helmut Marko are. 

I'm gonna take the fifth buddy. I expressed an opinion of this a while back and it all got a bit silly and I'm only just now back from my latest holiday*.

 

*Which I d did deserve to be fair ?

[Comrade 86]

Oh my lord, it just gets funnier and funnier...

From the BBC:

Max Verstappen says reaction to team orders controversy 'unacceptable' and 'disgusting'

 

"We went to Brazil and I thought we were just going go to race and get the best possible result. We had a bit of a miscommunication on Saturday and Sunday. Nothing had been said to me about a potential swap or whatever. It only came into that last lap that it was said on the radio.

"And they should have known my response already from what I said the week before.

"After the race we had some good discussion and put everything on the table and everything has been solved.

 

[Andicis]

3 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Oh my lord, it just gets funnier and funnier...

From the BBC:

Max Verstappen says reaction to team orders controversy 'unacceptable' and 'disgusting'

 

"We went to Brazil and I thought we were just going go to race and get the best possible result. We had a bit of a miscommunication on Saturday and Sunday. Nothing had been said to me about a potential swap or whatever. It only came into that last lap that it was said on the radio.

"And they should have known my response already from what I said the week before.

"After the race we had some good discussion and put everything on the table and everything has been solved.

 

Someone on reddit posted a helpful time line of the last lap:

"listening back to the last lap on F1TV.

at turn 4 Max asks how many laps are left, GP tells him it's the last lap.

at turn 6-7, GP tells Max to let Checo through if he has not overtaken Alonso by turn 12 (the left hander before the long sweeping left to the finish).

after turn 13, GP tells Max to not worry about DRS and to let Perez past.

Turn 14-15, GP tells Verstappen twice to let Perez through.

On the cooldown lap at turn 3, GP asks Verstappen what happened and then Verstappen says "I already told you last summer, don't ask that again to me", okay? Are we clear about that?

At turn 4 Max says "I gave you my reasons and i stand by it!"

rest of the cooldown lap is silent except for an instruction to enter the pitlane."

So that he didn't know until the last corner is just patently not true. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

I have to say, those people only just waking up to it now, how!? It's shouldn't have been evident for everyone for a long time now how toxic Verstappen, Horner and Helmut Marko are. 

They manged to make Vettel the most dislikable driver on the gird for several years. Seb didn't even do anything particually objectionable, he just was annoying as balls. Webbo on the other hand, a bit like checo, a well liked and respected driver, just got the treatment from Karen and Marko. Seb could literally crash into Webber and Karen and Marko would blame it on Webber. (on a tangent, it's mad to think just how close Webber came to winning the title, would've been the most popular WDC for a generation).

Everyone forgot for a while because they stopped winning and Danny Ric was so likeable he was able to overcome the Karenisms until they found Max and went into overdrive.

If I think things are being said that are over the top in terms of what's being levelled at red bull, I'll say so, but this current effort is a lame duck, and I doubt anyone believes they're all happy families now and it was all just a misunderstanding.

Max was a bamford as some sort of spiteful revence for some percieved injustice and did his best to tell the world that's exactly what it was (without actually saying it). We've all got eyes, ears and brains. They can't gaslight the entire F1 audiance like we're all MIchael Masi.

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by RadioactiveWaste

[Comrade 86]

14 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

They manged to make Vettel the most dislikable driver on the gird for several years. Seb didn't even do anything particually objectionable, he just was annoying as balls. Webbo on the other hand, a bit like checo, a well liked and respected driver, just got the treatment from Karen and Marko. Seb could literally crash into Webber and Karen and Marko would blame it on Webber. (on a tangent, it's mad to think just how close Webber came to winning the title, would've been the most popular WDC for a generation).

Everyone forgot for a while because they stopped winning and Danny Ric was so likeable he was able to overcome the Karenisms until they found Max and went into overdrive.

If I think things are being said that are over the top in terms of what's being levelled at red bull, I'll say so, but this current effort is a lame duck, and I doubt anyone believes they're all happy families now and it was all just a misunderstanding.

Max was a bamford as some sort of spiteful revence for some percieved injustice and did his best to tell the world that's exactly what it was (without actually saying it). We've all got eyes, ears and brains. They can't gaslight the entire F1 audiance like we're all MIchael Masi.

 

OK, so a long, but final word from me on this latest rather unsavoury fiasco. The young Seb was quite irritating, but I'm not sure who the 'they' you refer to is. Do you mean the media? Sorry if I'm being a bit thick, but I've just slept for 9 hours for the first time in years and my brain is struggling to comprehend what's just happened ? 

From a wider perspective, I recall a lot of folk getting irked by Seb's finger wagging exploits, but the arrogance of youth is something we all go through in one shape or form and I think most would acknowledge that whilst he treated Webber poorly, he's shown in recent years that he's not that person. Max is experiencing a wholly new level of bilious vitriol and whilst I don't condone much of the Twatter fallout, Max and RBR must accept and shoulder the lion's share of the blame. Also, we British especially, are not always keen on teams or individuals who dominate their sport and are only too happy when they are knocked off their perch. Those who are driven are especially open to our disdain. It's not enough to be a champion, but rather one must win AND lose with equal panache and humility. It's something of a tough brief and Red Bull Racing have fallen short on this metric by a mile and for a long time.

With the Verstappen, it all feels rather different and rather more orchestrated. They've built their 'monster' from the ground up and it's now become a runaway train. As you astutely point out, their PR folk are having to work around the clock as the Max, Marko and Karen Gobshite Horner take it in turns to drop a bolark and as one fire is extinguished, another begins to rage elsewhere. Let's not forget that Verstappen senior is a nasty piece of work and for me, he also carries a fair share of the blame. 

For my part, I think this could have been turned into a 'win' of sorts, or at least used as an opportunity to show a little humility and to demonstrate an understanding that RBR is just one team in a wider competition. Something along the lines of: 

We understand the current optics and we take responsibility for our actions as a group. We simply ask that people remember that Max is still a young man, in a pressure cooker of a sport and on occasions and in the heat of battle, errors of judgement are made. In the public glare, regrettable things can be said and done and social media dictates that they will be scrutinised and rehashed to a level that drivers from earlier eras never experienced. This extreme pressure resides at the heart of this wonderful sport of ours and in some regards, is the very thing that makes it so compelling. These factors notwithstanding, we understand, acknowledge and embrace our wider responsibilities to F1, the fans and our owners, Red Bull. We will now sit down with our drivers and try to ensure we do better, both individually and as a group. Better for F1, better for its audience and better for our owners, Red Bull. We would simply ask that those looking inward take into account that at 300KPH, where every decision must be made in milliseconds, errors of judgement will inevitably follow. We fully grasp that while positive results are key, there are other factors in play and we will strive to do better.

Instead, we get lies upon lies, upon lies, the chief instigator playing the victim's card and a team who are perpetually compounding the very same mistakes that led them to this place. The Red Bull brand owners must be watching events unfurl with some disquiet and I'd say that 2023 will be a critical year for RBR, not in terms of their results on the track, but rather whether the sizeable RBR budget is yielding the positive PR benefits that Red Bull expect, or instead, negatively impacting brand perception. Not all publicity is positive, after all. And let's have it straight here, Red Bull finance all manner of sportsmen and sports teams across the globe and no other franchise comes remotely close to the levels of fallout we are seeing here. In some ways, I'm glad Dietrich Mateschitz is not around to see this latest fiasco, as I feel certain his F1 team fall a long way short of complementing his sporting ethos.

Edited November 18, 2022 by 86 Hair Islands

[RadioactiveWaste]

I was meaning Horner and Marko primarily, seeing as how once Seb was away from red bull he became much more likeable, although the British bias of a fair chunk of the F1 the media certainly helped (in the way they do) and as you say, arrogance of youth.

But yes, Jos is bitter because he feels he didn't get a fair chance in the sport and I can't imagine hanging out with Nelson Piquet is a good influence either (once when asked who was better out of him and Senna, Piquet replied "I'm alive").

Totally agree, just a little humility would've gone a long way. The efforts to say max did nothing wrong are embarrassing.

But there's a race this weekend, things still to play for, ok 2nd in the drivers isn't an amazing thing, but it'd likely be a career high for Perez if he gets it where as I'm sure Leclerc is going to challenge for the title for more seasons. Also there's a few drivers close to each other, particularly Alonso v Ocon.

But the interesting stuff is in the constructors championship, I think Alpine have enough over McLaren and Ferrari over mercedes, but Alpha Romeo v Aston Martin is tight and Haas v Alpha Tauri is also tight.

 

[Alph]

I want Leclerc to finish ahead of Perez so this petty behaviour hangs over RBR and Max for longer. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Alpha

[Comrade 86]

24 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I want Leclerc to finish ahead of Perez so this petty behaviour hangs over RBR and Max for longer. 

I admire your honesty fella. I want to see an end to SOME aspects of RBR's behaviours and I qualify this so as to not be reminded that other teams are not whiter than white, an illusion under which I've never fallen. That said, not at Checo's demise. Had he not looked after Max on a few occasions this season, I feel pretty sure he'd have 2nd place locked in already. In a sport where oftentimes nice guys finish last, it'd be grand to see one in finish an honourable and well-earned second.*

*DISCLAIMER: But yes, in some ways so do I ?

[RadioactiveWaste]

25 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I want Leclerc to finish ahead of Perez so this petty behaviour hangs over RBR and Max for longer. 

If it's by 2 points it's going to burn long into the night!

I certainly wouldn't be unhappy if Leclerc does get it, he's become one of my favourite drivers of the new generation, ok too many mistakes this year but some really good drives as well. I like Carlos as well, and Ferrari have been in the wilderness for long enough now. I don't think I'll ever be a Ferrari fan, but they're far from being dislikeable in their current form.