RAM1966 Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 3 hours ago, jono said: The only debt we will have is how much the new owners are comfortable taking on It very much depends on how you view that, there are certain creditors that will need paying to avoid further points deductions next season. HMRC being one of them, it maybe up to the potential new owners whether they want to watch the club go bust or hold their nose and accept a little more debt than they would like. If you think Morris is not holding the cards any more you are sadly mistaken, he still owns £100 - £110M in assets and will have a huge say on any deal that will involve the sale of the ground and training facilities. Personally I have no confidence that he will not let the club go bust and change the use of both PPS and Moor Farm......... We just have to hope and pray that Mel is sensible in his expectations......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 31 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said: The reference to security over personal assets? I wonder if that’s a reference to the stadium owning group I wouldn't think that counts as a personal asset. Offering Personal Guarantees is a common thing required for floating loans.. the charge on the leases etc probably isn't worth very much and certainly not the £17 million said to be owed by Derby to MSD. The situation with MSD loan on the stadium itself is a different matter. There the value of the stadium will exceed the value of the MSD loan so no need for personal guarantees on that loan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abu Derby Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 I’d love a Russian Olivegark, in the Mould of Roman Abravomick. kevinhectoring and jono 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinhectoring Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 23 minutes ago, PistoldPete said: I wouldn't think that counts as a personal asset. Offering Personal Guarantees is a common thing required for floating loans.. the charge on the leases etc probably isn't worth very much and certainly not the £17 million said to be owed by Derby to MSD. The situation with MSD loan on the stadium itself is a different matter. There the value of the stadium will exceed the value of the MSD loan so no need for personal guarantees on that loan. But everything is cross collateralised isn’t it ? The charging documents indicate as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1967RAMS Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 4 hours ago, BathRam72 said: Didn't Mel have to pass this test when he took over? ? Yes and as a very successful businessman, he would have passed with flying colours. Unfortunately that is no guarantee of future good business acumen as we have found out. I think apart from previous convictions for fraudulent or nefarious business practices, pretty much anyone can pass. They need a complete rethink of the rules with perhaps a fully audited and submitted set of accounts filed every couple of years a bare minimum. Being able to go closer to 4 years in our case obviously helps hide problems until it’s too late Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinhectoring Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 40 minutes ago, RAM1966 said: If you think Morris is not holding the cards any more you are sadly mistaken, he still owns £100 - £110M in assets and will have a huge say on any deal that will involve the sale of the ground and training facilities. Personally I have no confidence that he will not let the club go bust and change the use of both PPS and Moor Farm......... Mel has 1 card only. He is owed money by the club. He has agreed to waive his rights to be repaid. If he does not that could cause big problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 1 hour ago, kevinhectoring said: But everything is cross collateralised isn’t it ? The charging documents indicate as much. I haven't seen the charge documents. MSD has a charge on Derby's lease on PPS (which from the Mail article also carry Mel's personal Guarantees) as well as a separate charge on the freehold of PPS which is owned by Mel's company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eatonram Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 39 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said: Mel has 1 card only. He is owed money by the club. He has agreed to waive his rights to be repaid. If he does not that could cause big problems Surely he is only owed money by the Club if the 80m for the Stadium has been paid TOO the Club? Has it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reggie Greenwood Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 1 hour ago, 1967RAMS said: Yes and as a very successful businessman, he would have passed with flying colours. Unfortunately that is no guarantee of future good business acumen as we have found out. I think apart from previous convictions for fraudulent or nefarious business practices, pretty much anyone can pass. They need a complete rethink of the rules with perhaps a fully audited and submitted set of accounts filed every couple of years a bare minimum. Being able to go closer to 4 years in our case obviously helps hide problems until it’s too late Forests owner passed so probably Ron and Reggie Kray would have been ok as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinhectoring Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Eatonram said: Surely he is only owed money by the Club if the 80m for the Stadium has been paid TOO the Club? Has it? That doesn’t figure unfortunately Gellaw 202 owes the club £. The club owes him money (apparently). Two different legs of a trouser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinhectoring Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, PistoldPete said: I haven't seen the charge documents. MSD has a charge on Derby's lease on PPS (which from the Mail article also carry Mel's personal Guarantees) as well as a separate charge on the freehold of PPS which is owned by Mel's company. They are online at companies house. Fixed and floating charges from all his footie companies and cross guaranteed to the hilt, or so it seems. Pretty sure MSD will be sitting pretty with the value of the stadium covering their accruing default interest on all loans. Accruing for a further 90 days ... Edited September 28, 2021 by kevinhectoring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 3 hours ago, Abu Derby said: I’d love a Russian Olivegark, in the Mould of Roman Abravomick. I’m trying to get my head round this ???. An Olivegark. Thinking that might be what happens if you eat an olive, forget the stone is still in it and smash your teeth … loved Abramovmick .. is he that Italian / Siberian relative of Mick McCarthy ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 Why hasn’t Gellaw 202 paid the club the money for the Stadium? Why isn’t this such an obvious question? If they did, we’d have the cash to pay off the debts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gringo Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 45 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said: They are online at companies house. Fixed and floating charges from all his footie companies and cross guaranteed to the hilt, or so it seems. Pretty sure MSD will be sitting pretty with the value of the stadium covering their accruing default interest on all loans. Accruing for a further 90 days ... Based on my personal experience I believe MSD can over recover by 10% to cover their expenses of collecting the monies owed, also the charges have a negative pledge on them meaning they have to agree to any new owner. MM's personal guarantee will encompass all of his wealth including property and any holdings he has in his other business's so they are in a very good position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BathRam72 Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 13 hours ago, 1967RAMS said: Yes and as a very successful businessman, he would have passed with flying colours. Unfortunately that is no guarantee of future good business acumen as we have found out. I think apart from previous convictions for fraudulent or nefarious business practices, pretty much anyone can pass. They need a complete rethink of the rules with perhaps a fully audited and submitted set of accounts filed every couple of years a bare minimum. Being able to go closer to 4 years in our case obviously helps hide problems until it’s too late Exactly my point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 10 hours ago, kevinhectoring said: They are online at companies house. Fixed and floating charges from all his footie companies and cross guaranteed to the hilt, or so it seems. Pretty sure MSD will be sitting pretty with the value of the stadium covering their accruing default interest on all loans. Accruing for a further 90 days ... yes I had a quick look and as you say MSD has a floating charge over Gellaw 202 as well as a fixed charge on PPS . even so you would expect that the value of PPS still means that the Company wouldn’t be forced into liquidation and mel can sell the stadium to the new owners . It has to be in mel’s interests to do that , and the clubs too . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinhectoring Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 45 minutes ago, PistoldPete said: yes I had a quick look and as you say MSD has a floating charge over Gellaw 202 as well as a fixed charge on PPS . even so you would expect that the value of PPS still means that the Company wouldn’t be forced into liquidation and mel can sell the stadium to the new owners . It has to be in mel’s interests to do that , and the clubs too . Absolutely, the administrators were clear that the buyer would get the club and the stadium. And that based on what they have seen a liquidation will be avoided my original point really was that - contrary to hundreds of posts on here - MM does not control the stadium, MSD and the admins do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoldPete Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 1 hour ago, kevinhectoring said: Absolutely, the administrators were clear that the buyer would get the club and the stadium. And that based on what they have seen a liquidation will be avoided my original point really was that - contrary to hundreds of posts on here - MM does not control the stadium, MSD and the admins do Well he is owner of the Company .. directly or otherwise a person of significant control according to Companies House. I think that’s what they mean. kevinhectoring 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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