Chris_Martin Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Coconut said: Genuine question despite your pathetic troll post. Where do you reckon we'd be in the table if we'd sacked Cocu on the eve of the first game of the season and given the job to Rooney there and then? I'd go for 5 more points and 17th place. Not in a relegation fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said: Not in a relegation fight. ...in which case I think you're utterly deluded. We'd have had a more solid defence but we still wouldn't have scored enough goals to make a significant difference - afterall he's so far failed to get anything going in an attacking sense that doesn't involve CKR, and his two games (yes I'm counting Boro) without Bielik have both ended in a 3-0 defeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rammy03 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 40 minutes ago, Coconut said: ...in which case I think you're utterly deluded. So you think we'd only be 5 points better off and in 17th place if we sacked Cocu and appointed Rooney before the season started? We lost 9 of our opening 13 games. I think you're the one who is deluded. This team is in this position because of the start we had. There was no belief, no fight, no quality. Nothing. It all spiralled out of control under a useless manager. Rooney has restored the fight and we've picked up. Had this been in place at the start of the season, we would be mid table I reckon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 39 minutes ago, Rammy03 said: So you think we'd only be 5 points better off and in 17th place if we sacked Cocu and appointed Rooney before the season started? We lost 9 of our opening 13 games. I think you're the one who is deluded. This team is in this position because of the start we had. There was no belief, no fight, no quality. Nothing. It all spiralled out of control under a useless manager. Rooney has restored the fight and we've picked up. Had this been in place at the start of the season, we would be mid table I reckon. Yes Who scores the goals in the first 13 games to stop us from losing, or scores enough to win some of those games? Rooney has already shown that he can't get goals out of the players available at that time, or even from those returning, why do you think anyone else could have? I'll re-evaluate it slightly though. The absolute best we could hope with the squad available at the time would be turning single goal defeats against Luton, Watford, Huddersfield, QPR & Bristol into draws (5 extra points) and turning some narrow draws into victories (Forest, Cardiff, Bournemouth) by not conceding.. theoretically best case scenario is 11 points better, but realistically the best case scenario doesn't happen. It would require us to keep a clean sheet in nearly every game, because even under Rooney we've still only scored more than one goal in a game twice - it would be a big ask. We'd need the best defensive record in Championship history! We massively rode our luck to gain 2 points from Wycombe & Brentford. We still haven't come back from going a goal down to earn a point. We've dropped enough points under Rooney to make me doubt that anything even approaching the best case scenario is a realistic proposition. I'm hardly being unrealistic about our chances of a better points return when you consider all of the available information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 As all of you know, I was never Cocu’s biggest fan and I was mightily relieved to see him go. Once Martin had gone, I think the writing was on the wall this was going to be a tough season. The injuries to Lawrence and Waghorn and the failure to add goals and creativity through new signings only compounded that. Cocu should have gone much sooner, arguably after the Huddersfield game. That was the one which highlighted that luck and everything else he might need to be a success here had completely and absolutely deserted him. But to say we are where we are now is all down to Cocu is extremely generous towards Rooney, Rosenior and the wider coaching team. People seem to forget that after Cocu’s last game in charge, Barnsley at home, we were only 2 points from safety! So it was far from the irretrievable position people would have you believe it was. It was just a case of confidence being long gone and those insipid home losses to QPR and Barnsley putting a bow on an absolutely horrendous run of results. The deficit only grew because we basically fumbled our way through the next two games under the management committee and then also failed to put Wycombe and Coventry away once Rooney took sole charge. There is no denying that we had a terrible start to the season under Cocu, but Rooney and the coaching staff have absolutely contributed to our current position. Just look at the sheer number of teams we have played under Rooney that are outside the top 10 and how we have failed to beat them. When you consider his first two games in charge were division newcomers Wycombe and Coventry at home, he couldn’t have asked for two better games to get his reign kickstarted. When you also consider that we have played 6 of the other 8 teams at the very bottom of the table during Rooney’s time in sole charge, he couldn’t have asked for a better opportunity to get points on the board and really affect the look of the table. Rooney has done a good job, don’t get me wrong, but if he was really special, we wouldn’t have dropped 16 points from 27 to teams outside the top 10 and we would have the confidence not to worry about what Sheff Wed, Rotherham and Forest are going to do next, instead of being a bag of nerves every weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 Some good points raised by some recent posts, So here's my take on who's at fault. PC didn't want to sell Martin, Martin was offered a deal, Chose to reject it and moved on, PC then went looking for a replacement, To late all those available had moved on or re-signed for their clubs, So we go for an aging CKR...wow 34 and has travelled more than those who live in caravans, Our performences were shocking, The 0-4 drubbing against an average Blackburn showed us how low we have sunk, PC was rightly removed from his duties and sacked...finances and poor management got us where we were...at fault MM and PC along with the coaching staff. A gang of 4 take the reigns and confusion is born, Some 4 games later one man is invited after "manoeuvring" into position...at fault, WR, LR, SG, JW. Since WR taking sole charge with LR as his 2nd in command we've seen a huge improvement, Training looks to be better, Our fragile defence has been shored up, Squad depth still very short on experience but a team that looks to be growing in confidence, Hence results are better than under PC, Has there been blips...too right there has under the sole charge of WR, Swansea who we beat would argue as would Bristol and QPR that they were "blips", This division is murderous and has been for years, On any given day, Bottom clubs can upset top clubs it's a living hell, The Rotherham result has set tongues wagging, The same Rotherham that beat Boro 3-0 away, Beat Preston 2-1 away, They have a way of playing that is alien to alot of clubs...the same as the old Wimbledon of yesteryear, So who's at fault it's WR, Purely all his fault at where we are now, He's been given time and the tools now to hopefully get us moving up this division, If we're relegated my finger will be pointing at WR and MM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 11 hours ago, Coconut said: There's no excuse not to, you can't blame Cocu forever.... well, you can, but that's your petty business. Cheers mate. I'm not being petty and unlike you I'm not trying to shift blame! Cocu is responsible for a fabulous 10th place and mostly turgid football. It was obvious that we were likely to be relegated after a poor start to this season, the lack of points being the clue. That is always going to be the case - this 'blame forever' bit, are you expecting me to next season say, oh no it wasn't Cocu's fault, it was just some other thing beyond his control?! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 57 minutes ago, James Pond said: PC didn't want to sell Martin, Martin was offered a deal, Chose to reject it and moved on, PC then went looking for a replacement, Too late all those available had moved on or re-signed for their clubs, Martin had been able to sign for another club since the January, it was obvious he wasn't going to stay - Cocu should have known we wouldn't up our budget for him. 58 minutes ago, James Pond said: The 0-4 drubbing against an average Blackburn showed us how low we have sunk, PC was rightly removed from his duties and sacked...finances and poor management got us where we were...at fault MM and PC along with the coaching staff. It might not have totally been finances - see how Rooney has wheeled and dealed. Perhaps it was down to Cocu's choice of player that he'd settle for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 I do wonder how much of our awful start to the season under Cocu was influenced by us (presumably) having to play Rooney every game?. His playing form was awful & mistakes cost us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Martin had been able to sign for another club since the January, it was obvious he wasn't going to stay - Cocu should have known we wouldn't up our budget for him. It might not have totally been finances - see how Rooney has wheeled and dealed. Perhaps it was down to Cocu's choice of player that he'd settle for? Negotiations with Martin/Agent went on and on from January, Offers were made, A final offer was made he turned it down, The workings of a final few months of a players contract are a minefield, A pre contract could have been signed, His agent could have put the word out on his availability, It went to the wire, For me Martin played his cards right...pay me what I want or i'm off on a free, I just wonder what Bristol stumped up in wages for him, Whatever it is it looks like money pissed down the drain. Players left, Holmes manufactured his move and it freed up wages, Whittaker and Evens went for circa £1.5million plus wages saved, Gordon looks to be off to Liverpool for £1million+, Players coming in would I assume would have part of wages paid by their parent club and DCFC maybe having to pay a loan fee...details we don't know about. As for finances...it's all down to finances, That's why MM wants out and we're walking up the down escalator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marriot Ram99 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 24 minutes ago, Wolfie said: I do wonder how much of our awful start to the season under Cocu was influenced by us (presumably) having to play Rooney every game?. His playing form was awful & mistakes cost us. He was poor but so were the likes of Bird and Whittaker who looked like conference players at the start of the season. Rooney should have retired in the summer really, two sets of players at opposite extremes of their careers not good enough for championship football in that team and needed better players to carry them e.g Bielik who was injured and the more senior players like Lawrence and Waghorn. Most of our solid championship performers who were nothing special but solid like Johnson had gone and obviously Martin as well leaving us with youngesters and whatever frees we could sign. Knight and Buchanan have been brilliant but we have over relied on youngsters not good enough, strong enough or experienced enough for championship football like Whittaker and Bird has been found out at times. Lawrence and Waghorn have been pathetic this season for the wages they are on and money we spent on them so we may as well sell them for anything we can get in the summer and save wages and then get free transfers or use younger players in their place. We have built a team reliant on those 2 and obviously they haven't delivered this season. I'm hoping Roberts can be the answer though as we are crying out for some quality. Also, he may have been poor this season but Rooneys free kick stole us a win against Norwich which could be the points that keep us up come the end of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 10 minutes ago, James Pond said: As for finances...it's all down to finances, That's why MM wants out and we're walking up the down escalator. Well of course it is. But Cocu didn't nothing with what was available did he? Oh well yeah he signed Bielik so there were some finances! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 12 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Well of course it is. But Cocu didn't nothing with what was available did he? Oh well yeah he signed Bielik so there were some finances! Earlier post. "It might not have totally been finances" U turn post "Well of course it is" You'd make a Politician blush ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marriot Ram99 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 12 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Well of course it is. But Cocu didn't nothing with what was available did he? Oh well yeah he signed Bielik so there were some finances! I know it's harsh on Bielik but it's typical that the player Cocu spent all of our funds on has been injury prone and is looking like another George Thorne who won't be a reliable player for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 8 minutes ago, James Pond said: Earlier post. "It might not have totally been finances" U turn post "Well of course it is" You'd make a Politician blush ? You're messing with semantics. 'Down to finances' is what I said - ie spend a budget. Recently Mel has reined in the budget. So yes finances play a big part. But how has Rooney managed to get in 5 new players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 42 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Cheers mate. I'm not being petty and unlike you I'm not trying to shift blame! Cocu is responsible for a fabulous 10th place and mostly turgid football. It was obvious that we were likely to be relegated after a poor start to this season, the lack of points being the clue. That is always going to be the case - this 'blame forever' bit, are you expecting me to next season say, oh no it wasn't Cocu's fault, it was just some other thing beyond his control?! ? If you think that fairly allocating responsibility taking a multitude of factors into consideration is 'shifting blame' then caught me red handed. I fully agreed that there was no choice but to sack Cocu though, so your little narrative that I'm trying to absolve Cocu of his own responsibilities is unfounded. I'm not 'expecting' anything remotely reasonable or considered from you, no. Good god, perish the thought! By the end of the season Rooney will have had 34 games in sole charge and a transfer window to make up, as Jourdan pointed out, a 2 point gap to safety. If we get relegated from here are you going to try to claim that it's 100% Cocu's fault? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 Just now, Coconut said: If we get relegated from here are you going to try to claim that it's 100% Cocu's fault? Why on earth would you think that? Your thinking is absolutely crazy - you want to get it checked out. If we get relegated (and I don't think we will) then it would be down to Cocu and Rooney. Oh dear has that statement come as a bit of a surprise to you?! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 9 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Why on earth would you think that? Your thinking is absolutely crazy - you want to get it checked out. If we get relegated (and I don't think we will) then it would be down to Cocu and Rooney. Oh dear has that statement come as a bit of a surprise to you?! ? I was simply using your posting strategy for a change. You love asking stupid questions to entice debate! What percentage of the blame you put on Cocu & Rooney respectively should the worst happen? If we do get relegated, would you want Rooney sacked? The only thing that surprises me is that I've bothered to keep replying to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 15 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: You're messing with semantics. 'Down to finances' is what I said - ie spend a budget. Recently Mel has reined in the budget. So yes finances play a big part. But how has Rooney managed to get in 5 new players? Se my earlier post ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 28 minutes ago, James Pond said: Se my earlier post ? Can't be bothered ? it was a bit rhetorical anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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