The coronabrexit thread. I mean, coronavirus thread

[Crewton]

7 minutes ago, maxjam said:

First fall in carehome workers in a decade;

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/11/englands-social-care-workforce-shrinks-for-first-time-in-10-years

Lost 50k workers in the past 12 months (on top of 100k+ shortfall previously)

Sure wages and working conditions aren't enticing many people into the profession, but this was an entirely predictable outcome of the mandate policy - more so considering that its never stopped transmission ?

https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/social-care/warning-many-care-workers-will-not-return-to-jobs-despite-vaccine-rule-change-02-03-2022/

Alarm go off, did it? They're all here now. ?

Trouble is, there doesn't seem to be any recent study to assess how many left the sector due to the threat of the mandate, or how many may have returned since it was scrapped. The Guardian article barely mentions it and the NT one is speculation as to what might happen.

I appreciate that some patients and families may be so desperate for care that they aren't bothered about an unvaccinated person looking after their relative, but I still hold the view that if you work in the health sector and aren't willing to do everything you can to protect patients, you're probably in the wrong job even if the country needs you.

[Tamworthram]

15 hours ago, Archied said:

Just had covid for the second time ( perhaps more times ??‍♂️), daughter for third time , wife had it three times , just like a common cold ,washed out for a few days , chesty cough,,,, 

I know loads of people who are catching this and similar symptoms despite pumping these so called vaccines into they re  bodies , jeez i know people who are on they’re FIFTH JAB ffs and catching it

But isn't the primary purpose of the jabs to reduce the risk and symptoms if you catch Covid rather than preventing you catching it?

My 93 year old dad has just recovered from it. He was very ill (but thankfully not serious enough to be hospitalised). Of course we'll never know but I trust the science (possibly because my daughter is a pharmacologist and my brother in a chemist) and suspect he may not have survived if he hadn't been fully dosed up. 

I'll be getting my booster in a couple of weeks but wouldn't have it at the same time as my flu jab. I certainly won't be mocking sceptics though.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Tamworthram

[maxjam]

14 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Trouble is, there doesn't seem to be any recent study to assess how many left the sector due to the threat of the mandate, or how many may have returned since it was scrapped. The Guardian article barely mentions it and the NT one is speculation as to what might happen.

No, just articles at the time saying thousands had left and wouldn't return, and current figures now showing 50k have left during the past year. 

I think the Govt is in enough trouble without commissioning studies into an entirely predictable problem they directly caused ? 

 

14 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I appreciate that some patients and families may be so desperate for care that they aren't bothered about an unvaccinated person looking after their relative, but I still hold the view that if you work in the health sector and aren't willing to do everything you can to protect patients, you're probably in the wrong job even if the country needs you.

As opposed to leaving thousands without care or insufficient care and causing bed blocking that is adding to already long NHS queues?

All for something that doesn't even prevent transmission.

Might be an idea to pay the buggers more and entice people back into the profession.  Not gonna happen, but we can hope.

[Crewton]

5 minutes ago, maxjam said:

No, just articles at the time saying thousands had left and wouldn't return, and current figures now showing 50k have left during the past year. 

I think the Govt is in enough trouble without commissioning studies into an entirely predictable problem they directly caused ? 

 

As opposed to leaving thousands without care or insufficient care and causing bed blocking that is adding to already long NHS queues?

All for something that doesn't even prevent transmission.

Might be an idea to pay the buggers more and entice people back into the profession.  Not gonna happen, but we can hope.

Oh I agree with your last point - and recruit more people from wherever it takes, but not as cheaper labour. Pay more and make it a proper profession that people want to build careers in.

As for the transmission statement - well, of course it doesn't prevent transmission 100% - no vaccine does - but it does prevent transmission to a high degree and makes symptoms in most cases relatively mild and non-fatal.

Of course striking the balance between patient safety and patient comfort is a difficult one, and I understand why the government backed down on that. People who lost loved ones in health facilities will though always wonder how they became infected and whether vaccine scepticism played it's part.

Ultimately, whilst there are risks associated with taking the Covid vaccines (as there are with every vaccine an d the majority of medical procedures), they're minute compared to the benefits.

There's a pretty concerning Ebola outbreak in Uganda at the moment, and cases have been identified in Kampala the capital. There's currently no vaccine against Ebola. If it breaks out of Africa and reaches western Europe and the UK, will Covid sceptics I wonder be claiming that it's "just a little bleeding" and refusing a vaccine if one is hastily cleared for use?

 

[maxjam]

32 minutes ago, Crewton said:

As for the transmission statement - well, of course it doesn't prevent transmission 100% - no vaccine does - but it does prevent transmission to a high degree and makes symptoms in most cases relatively mild and non-fatal.

The effect was minimal and short lived during the Alpha/Delta waves and negligible now.

 

38 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Ultimately, whilst there are risks associated with taking the Covid vaccines (as there are with every vaccine an d the majority of medical procedures), they're minute compared to the benefits.

Still under review imho.

 

38 minutes ago, Crewton said:

There's a pretty concerning Ebola outbreak in Uganda at the moment, and cases have been identified in Kampala the capital. There's currently no vaccine against Ebola. If it breaks out of Africa and reaches western Europe and the UK, will Covid sceptics I wonder be claiming that it's "just a little bleeding" and refusing a vaccine if one is hastily cleared for use?

You can't compare something that primarily effects the older generation, high (airborne) transmission and a 99% survival rate with something like Ebola.

The majority of covid sceptics such as myself are not outright anti-vaxxers, just capable of weighing up their personal risk/benefit ratio whilst just waiting for more data. 

[Crewton]

37 minutes ago, maxjam said:

The effect was minimal and short lived during the Alpha/Delta waves and negligible now.

 

Still under review imho.

 

You can't compare something that primarily effects the older generation, high (airborne) transmission and a 99% survival rate with something like Ebola.

The majority of covid sceptics such as myself are not outright anti-vaxxers, just capable of weighing up their personal risk/benefit ratio whilst just waiting for more data. 

Ah, yes, the head of the CDC who, after that interview clip was seized upon by absolute weapons like James Melville, sought media advice to help prevent her from making similar errors in future :

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/10/rochelle-walensky-is-not-good-this/

What she meant of course is that vaccines designed to prevent infection and transmission of the early dominant variant are less effective in preventing transmission of the later, highly infectious Delta and Omicron variants that those vaccines weren't designed specifically for. 

It's not the great "own" that you think it is. 

[maxjam]

7 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Ah, yes, the head of the CDC who, after that interview clip was seized upon by absolute weapons like James Melville, sought media advice to help prevent her from making similar errors in future :

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/01/10/rochelle-walensky-is-not-good-this/

What she meant of course is that vaccines designed to prevent infection and transmission of the early dominant variant are less effective in preventing transmission of the later, highly infectious Delta and Omicron variants that those vaccines weren't designed specifically for. 

It's not the great "own" that you think it is. 

Not sure what you mean by your last remark, its about getting at the truth.

Regardless of who I got the twitter clip from they have all said it now - Boris Johnson last Christmas when he was still PM, Bill Gates, Fauci etc.  There have also been numerous studies done that show the minimal effect the vaccines had on Alpha/Delta transmission and negligible effect they have on Omicron.  I've posted some in the past and tbh cba to go over it again.

I suppose Fauci was also reprimanded for misspeaking as well...

Ultimately, you have the vaccine to protect yourself not others.

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Crewton said:

The proposed mandatory vaccination for care home and health workers was repealed before the cut-off date came into force. Some care workers undoubtedly decide to leave the sector because of this impending deadline, though I don't know where your 40,000 figure comes from. Allot of care workers left the sector because they were either burnt-out and/or could earn better pay more easily working for Amazon, say. The sector has struggled to replace these people because the government's immigration policy has made it harder to recruit overseas staff - that's not the vaccine's doing. I don't think though that 'bed-blocking' involving elderly patients is currently a major issue (well, no more than it usually is) because we're not yet into Winter - by January, it undoubtedly will be.

No I don’t suppose people in the care sector looked ahead and got themselves other jobs before they were pushed out or got themselves other jobs after putting themselves and they’re families at risk with no jabs ,very little ppe only to find themselves treated in the most disgusting fashion not only by the government but lots of the public at large ,,, clap for carers easyily flipped to sack for carers 

shame 

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Crewton said:

Oh I agree with your last point - and recruit more people from wherever it takes, but not as cheaper labour. Pay more and make it a proper profession that people want to build careers in.

As for the transmission statement - well, of course it doesn't prevent transmission 100% - no vaccine does - but it does prevent transmission to a high degree and makes symptoms in most cases relatively mild and non-fatal.

Of course striking the balance between patient safety and patient comfort is a difficult one, and I understand why the government backed down on that. People who lost loved ones in health facilities will though always wonder how they became infected and whether vaccine scepticism played it's part.

Ultimately, whilst there are risks associated with taking the Covid vaccines (as there are with every vaccine an d the majority of medical procedures), they're minute compared to the benefits.

There's a pretty concerning Ebola outbreak in Uganda at the moment, and cases have been identified in Kampala the capital. There's currently no vaccine against Ebola. If it breaks out of Africa and reaches western Europe and the UK, will Covid sceptics I wonder be claiming that it's "just a little bleeding" and refusing a vaccine if one is hastily cleared for use?

 

So what is this high degree of transmission prevention ? Just a guess ? Something you believe ? Phizer representative admmited to an mep last week they hadn’t even tested that before going to market , governments made the claim to justify mandates 

being as people 5 jabs in are still catching and spreading it I’m interested what figures your basing your claim on 

[Crewton]

15 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Not sure what you mean by your last remark, its about getting at the truth.

Regardless of who I got the twitter clip from they have all said it now - Boris Johnson last Christmas when he was still PM, Bill Gates, Fauci etc.  There have also been numerous studies done that show the minimal effect the vaccines had on Alpha/Delta transmission and negligible effect they have on Omicron.  I've posted some in the past and tbh cba to go over it again.

I suppose Fauci was also reprimanded for misspeaking as well...

Ultimately, you have the vaccine to protect yourself not others.

Studies indicate it's both, though more the former than the latter, but to say it "can't prevent transmission" is completely untrue : it's far from foolproof, but it can reduce viral loads and in doing so make even an asymptomatic carrier less infectious. 

[Stive Pesley]

9 minutes ago, Crewton said:

 it can reduce viral loads and in doing so make even an asymptomatic carrier less infectious. 

This is a scientifically proven and tested fact, but it's not the data that vaccine sceptics are waiting for.

What they are waiting for is the data that they hope proves them right. 

 

[Eddie]

54 minutes ago, Archied said:

being as people 5 jabs in are still catching and spreading it I’m interested what figures your basing your claim on 

At least that means that neither the vaccine nor Covid is killing them if they are fully vaccinated - and that is the sole purpose of the vaccines.

Masks help to prevent the spread - but you don't believe in those either.

[Archied]

12 minutes ago, Eddie said:

At least that means that neither the vaccine nor Covid is killing them if they are fully vaccinated - and that is the sole purpose of the vaccines.

Masks help to prevent the spread - but you don't believe in those either.

All I know is the country is on its arxe because of stupid covid policies, vaccines can reduce spread now by a poster rather than does to a very high degree ?,,, 

let those that want to walk round with bits of paper on they’re face and bang needle after needle In themselves crack on 

[Gone]

8 minutes ago, Archied said:

All I know is the country is on its arxe because of stupid covid policies

Spot on 

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

This is a scientifically proven and tested fact, but it's not the data that vaccine sceptics are waiting for.

What they are waiting for is the data that they hope proves them right. 

 

I think this is true with many, sadly, but Maxjam, did make a valid point - everyone should at least assess their own level of risk and act accordingly. This government isn't now going to introduce any new restrictions or obligations and so it's up to the vulnerable and their families to shield themselves as best they can even if it means being stigmatised by the more vocal sceptics.

[Crewton]

57 minutes ago, Archied said:

All I know is the country is on its arxe because of stupid covid policies, vaccines can reduce spread now by a poster rather than does to a very high degree ?,,, 

let those that want to walk round with bits of paper on they’re face and bang needle after needle In themselves crack on 

Not the most articulate or convincing argument I've heard, though it is consistent, I'll give you that.

[Archied]

13 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Not the most articulate or convincing argument I've heard, though it is consistent, I'll give you that.

Why dress up the plain truth , 

[maxjam]

2 hours ago, Crewton said:

Studies indicate it's both, though more the former than the latter, but to say it "can't prevent transmission" is completely untrue : it's far from foolproof, but it can reduce viral loads and in doing so make even an asymptomatic carrier less infectious. 

It might be semantics on my behalf but unless the vaccine does prevent transmission, it doesn't prevent transmission.  Most studies I can find relate to the initial variant, even by the time Delta came along the data was changing.  Now we're in Omicron and its sub-variants I think the general understanding is if you have covid whether you're fully vaccinated or otherwise you are infectious.  There may be a slight reduction in how infectious you are but ultimately you are still infectious.

https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o298

“Most studies show if you got an infection after vaccination, compared with someone who got an infection without a vaccine, you were pretty much shedding roughly the same amount of virus,” says Paul Hunter, professor in medicine at the University of East Anglia.

And this from Fauci is almost a year old now and refers to the new (at the time) Delta variant;

FWIW I'm not trying to be awkward re. Covid I have only ever been vehemently against the vaccine mandate - I just want the truth. 

TBH rather than state the vaccines prevent transmission, I would much rather they admitted they don't - certainly not in the 'real world' and raise awareness for those that assume they are safe but would benefit from continuing to wear a mask.  More people have died from covid post vaccine rollout that before.

And talking of the truth, I had this email a few days ago from a petition I signed...

Dear maxjam,

Parliament is going to debate the petition you signed – “Open a Public Inquiry into Covid-19 Vaccine Safety”.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/602171

The debate is scheduled for 24 October 2022.

Once the debate has happened, we’ll email you a video and transcript.

Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

All I know is the country is on its arxe because of stupid covid policies, vaccines can reduce spread now by a poster rather than does to a very high degree ?,,, 

let those that want to walk round with bits of paper on they’re face and bang needle after needle In themselves crack on 

It's disappointing that you have felt the need to ridicule those that disagree with your point of view. 

[Archied]

20 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I think this is true with many, sadly, but Maxjam, did make a valid point - everyone should at least assess their own level of risk and act accordingly. This government isn't now going to introduce any new restrictions or obligations and so it's up to the vulnerable and their families to shield themselves as best they can even if it means being stigmatised by the more vocal sceptics.

Stigmatised???  There has been plenty of that ,,, even now people with death certificates stating vaccine death and in receipt of pay outs from the government are labelled as spreading mis information and thrown off Twitter and Facebook , shunned by the main stream media 

could you imagine being unlucky enough to have a loved one die from covid vaccines and then be ostracised, yes it’s not vast numbers but these people deserve to be treated with decency and respect given many took a vaccine because they were told it was the right thing to do for others and a conversation needs to be had