"Cocu Ball"

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

33 minutes ago, Curtains said:

One of the problems now is that the opposition play high press and it’s difficult to work your way out.  The long ball is often not an option and don’t forget we have to have the ability to hold the ball in the final 3rd. 
 

 

I agree with this but from my point of view it isn't "hold" as in a target man type player. Its fast intricate passing possession, but it needs to be in the final third or at least in the opponents half. 

[Srg]

6 minutes ago, The Orange Pimpernel said:

I agree with this but from my point of view it isn't "hold" as in a target man type player. Its fast intricate passing possession, but it needs to be in the final third or at least in the opponents half. 

Holding the ball in the final third hasn’t been as big of a problem as getting in there. The lack of pace to force teams back and frighten them in behind means they can squeeze the pitch and make it small, which gives us less space to work the ball with. We desperately need that option in the team. 

[Ellafella]

21 hours ago, WamRam said:

I love the idea and when it works it's great and we've seen it many times this season...

But......I'd love to see us sometimes just up the intensity and speed at which we play and break. Not claiming I know better, or can even do a better job than Cocu btw. It makes us easy to defend against, hence why we've not beaten a top 6 side this season. Because better set ups and better defences can cope with it quite comfortably at times.

So many times we get forward to halfway and instead of attacking at pace, like you would see with Leeds & WBA, players flying forwards, full-backs over lapping, the breaks are put on and we go inside and slowly across the pitch. I know it's hard to play like that all the time but hopefully next season we have the ability and players to be able to switch between the two during games.

I've noticed so many opportunities to switch the ball in the last few games and yes some are difficult passes, but other teams do it so effectively against us, we just seem to have to take an extra pass to get there.

I understand the idea behind our style...it's more about probing and waiting for gaps or a mistake but it would be nice to see us impose ourselves a tad more aggressively on teams sometimes.

 

Anyway, all in all i'm pretty positive for next season. UTR

Yes indeed. Quite often we float like a bee and sting like a butterfly ??

[Curtains]

Take Sibley for instance he’s a great talent but sometimes he doesn’t look up for better options and the whole thing breaks down and we are back to square one scrambling back to defend and then we have to start all over  again. 
 

The trick is retaining the ball in the middle and final 3rd  of the field .

Have we got the players to do that consistently apart from Rooney and Bird. 

[Curtains]

45 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

But even despite high pressing we are having the lions share of the ball in most games:-

Cardiff - 61%

West Brom - 59%

Forest - 69%

We are just not doing enough with it.

One bad result and we just instantly reverted to what we were doing in the first half of the season.

Slow passing, first touch always back towards our own goal.

The problem then becomes that if you make a mistake when doing this we are instantly in trouble.

 

I agree with this but you need the players to play and move and retain possession to gain openings.

Its all about the quality of the players as opposed to Cocu and his tactics. 
 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

1 hour ago, Srg said:

Holding the ball in the final third hasn’t been as big of a problem as getting in there. The lack of pace to force teams back and frighten them in behind means they can squeeze the pitch and make it small, which gives us less space to work the ball with. We desperately need that option in the team. 

That is why with the players we have we must play (a fit) Marriott. I think we kind of agree but if you watch Man City for instance they play mainly in the opponents half not so much their own half which I agree is much easier if you have more space due to having speed in the team. 

Before anyone says it I appreciate we are not Man City but neither are we playing against PL class opponents.

[HectorsHouse]

Lack of pace up front and the ability to burst through in the final third has been glaringly obvious since the first game of the season...even Huddersfield that day left our defenders in their wake a few times... pace worries defenders...either in the ability to run at the back line or to turn them.. Cocu knows this and I'm sure it will be addressed

[Jase116]

Personally I think we have to move the ball quicker at time, and certainly need more pace in the side when trying to break.

[HectorsHouse]

..agreed Jase116, our goal against Cardiff is a classic example of breaking and moving the ball quickly....we are often guilty of allowing the opposition time to regroup... Lampard often mentioned in interviews that we need to be braver on the ball, this is a view that I'm sure Cocu shares...  the reason we often look 'static' is because a slow build up sees both opposition and out offensive take up positions and any gaps or spaces are blocked and easily second guessed ...the build up needs to be more fluid with players rotating

[Srg]

42 minutes ago, The Orange Pimpernel said:

That is why with the players we have we must play (a fit) Marriott. I think we kind of agree but if you watch Man City for instance they play mainly in the opponents half not so much their own half which I agree is much easier if you have more space due to having speed in the team. 

Before anyone says it I appreciate we are not Man City but neither are we playing against PL class opponents.

Man City have the individual quality and vision, as well as off ball movement, to couple with pace in key areas. The runs Sterling makes, for example, means so much to them. Obviously, I know as well we aren't anything like them, but it just shows you even the best teams need that pace and off ball movement.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

19 minutes ago, Srg said:

Man City have the individual quality and vision, as well as off ball movement, to couple with pace in key areas. The runs Sterling makes, for example, means so much to them. Obviously, I know as well we aren't anything like them, but it just shows you even the best teams need that pace and off ball movement.

Agreed entirely.

[LeedsRam1999]

One of the main reasons we end up passing sideways is based on the fact we have no pace anywhere in the team apart from our fullbacks. 
 

We sign two wingers with pace and power and this team goes from a 7/10 to a 9/10. We will be a different animal next season if Cocu gets the players he wants. You have to remember the only player he signed that played today was Clarke. Give him money and a full transfer window and a full pre season. If he can produce decent football with a team that wasn’t his, what can he do with one that is his.

[Dcfc_20]

Personally I think we’ve only seen glimpses of “cocu ball”. We play a 4-2-3-1 at the moment and even at his first interview he said he wanted to eventually play 4-3-3. PSV played with him in charge a tall deep centre forward with pacey wingers either side to cross. He only played one cdm at PSV with two box to box attacking minded midfielders. If we are to fit that system we need to bring in players who fit that system, not force them in to it. I think the reason we have consistently seen 4-2-3-1 is because our strongest area is the defensive midfielders.

[cannable]

3 hours ago, Srg said:

Holding the ball in the final third hasn’t been as big of a problem as getting in there. The lack of pace to force teams back and frighten them in behind means they can squeeze the pitch and make it small, which gives us less space to work the ball with. We desperately need that option in the team. 

It’s what I’d see Knight doing if he played more centrally, like Bryson but 4-2-3-1 innit 

[brady1993]

9 minutes ago, Dcfc_20 said:

Personally I think we’ve only seen glimpses of “cocu ball”. We play a 4-2-3-1 at the moment and even at his first interview he said he wanted to eventually play 4-3-3. PSV played with him in charge a tall deep centre forward with pacey wingers either side to cross. He only played one cdm at PSV with two box to box attacking minded midfielders. If we are to fit that system we need to bring in players who fit that system, not force them in to it. I think the reason we have consistently seen 4-2-3-1 is because our strongest area is the defensive midfielders.

You have got a point here. I've got a couple of thoughts on why we may have got for 4231 as opposed to 433;

- Lack of suitable players at the start of the season. Holmes was injured, Shinnie he was still unsure of, Knight, Sibley, Bird yet to break through and it was debatable if we had a DM who could play that lone role. We were apparently close to signing Hendrick at the end of the window and I suspect that was a move to push us towards 433

- Rooney. It made complete sense at the time to plan for slotting Rooney in as a #10. It's transpired it's better to play him deeper where he's made a great partnership with Bird.

- Lack of faith in the backline. Both from a defensive perspective and the ability to build play up from the back with only one DM to help especially after Keogh's departure.

[LeedsCityRam]

22 minutes ago, Dcfc_20 said:

Personally I think we’ve only seen glimpses of “cocu ball”. We play a 4-2-3-1 at the moment and even at his first interview he said he wanted to eventually play 4-3-3. PSV played with him in charge a tall deep centre forward with pacey wingers either side to cross. He only played one cdm at PSV with two box to box attacking minded midfielders. If we are to fit that system we need to bring in players who fit that system, not force them in to it. I think the reason we have consistently seen 4-2-3-1 is because our strongest area is the defensive midfielders.

Interesting post. Could argue Knight & Holmes would work well as box to box midfielders with Bird sitting. That though relies on Rooney dropping out of the team (which arguable isnt going to happen for another few months) & creates a problem with Sibley (who I think is a number 10 & would be wasted box to box), another reason why I think 4-2-3-1 suits us well.

We are of course missing the pacey wingers, Lawrence is good enough to hold onto LW but real pace & quality needed on the other side. Martin funnily enough fits the profile of the CF.

[Carnero]

2 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

& creates a problem with Sibley (who I think is a number 10 & would be wasted box to box)

I think the opposite, and that Sibley is wasted if he's pigeon holed as a "number 10".

Bird holding, with Knight & Sibley box to box would be a great balance in my opinion, even if we have to wait a year or 2 to see it regularly.

[LeedsCityRam]

8 minutes ago, Carnero said:

I think the opposite, and that Sibley is wasted if he's pigeon holed as a "number 10".

Bird holding, with Knight & Sibley box to box would be a great balance in my opinion, even if we have to wait a year or 2 to see it regularly.

Do you think he's likely to score or assist as many goals playing deeper though?

Bryson scored plenty in that role of course but he was dependant on a certain type of forward to feed off. Sibley is very effective running with the ball & making those killer passes but that's likely to be harder if he's got more traffic in front of him.

[Carnero]

10 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Do you think he's likely to score or assist as many goals playing deeper though?

He has done for the U23s. Whether he can do it at senior level we'll find out in time.

He played pretty well in a 4-3-3 v Man Utd if I remember correctly, when he bossed McTominay.