The Politics Thread 2019

[ariotofmyown]

For 2020, might be good to have a far right vs antifa thread separate to this one. Although saying that, Anfifa are the greatest thread to world peace so they should have their own forum section. As usual, someone had posted something genuinely scary by a Britain First nutcase and it turns into an Antifa debate. 

Maybe there could be a Racist Diana Abbot pinned thread, so when anyone suggests that someone has said something racist, someone doesn't have to say 'wellwhataboutdianeabbotwhosaidsomethingracist'. They can just simply insert link to the Abbot thread so we don't have to discuss it.

Like if I put in this link to Muslim women been abused at Winter Wonderland and called Letterboxes, the usual suspects won't have to bring up Abbot again directly.

https://inews.co.uk/news/real-life/winter-wonderland-london-hyde-park-muslim-women-letterbox-1344467

Or if Gary Neville suggests that the language used by the Prime Minister has empowered people to use racist insults at games, no one will have to point out the Dianna Abbot is racist again.

We all want to make the world a better place right? Maybe a Politics Thread NY resolution could be to debate the issues raised rather than continual whataboutwhentheysaidthat?

Peace brothers.

[Sith Happens]

18 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

For 2020, might be good to have a far right vs antifa thread separate to this one. Although saying that, Anfifa are the greatest thread to world peace so they should have their own forum section. As usual, someone had posted something genuinely scary by a Britain First nutcase and it turns into an Antifa debate. 

Maybe there could be a Racist Diana Abbot pinned thread, so when anyone suggests that someone has said something racist, someone doesn't have to say 'wellwhataboutdianeabbotwhosaidsomethingracist'. They can just simply insert link to the Abbot thread so we don't have to discuss it.

Like if I put in this link to Muslim women been abused at Winter Wonderland and called Letterboxes, the usual suspects won't have to bring up Abbot again directly.

https://inews.co.uk/news/real-life/winter-wonderland-london-hyde-park-muslim-women-letterbox-1344467

Or if Gary Neville suggests that the language used by the Prime Minister has empowered people to use racist insults at games, no one will have to point out the Dianna Abbot is racist again.

We all want to make the world a better place right? Maybe a Politics Thread NY resolution could be to debate the issues raised rather than continual whataboutwhentheysaidthat?

Peace brothers.

We can forget all of that anyway,  we can join our collective voices as apparently the lake district itself is a nasty racist piece of work.

https://news.sky.com/story/lake-district-must-change-to-attract-more-diverse-visitors-11897034

Im thinking this is the new thing for 2020.

 

[maxjam]

27 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

For 2020, might be good to have a far right vs antifa thread separate to this one. Although saying that, Anfifa are the greatest thread to world peace so they should have their own forum section. As usual, someone had posted something genuinely scary by a Britain First nutcase and it turns into an Antifa debate. 

Although the point I and others are making is that we condone neither Antifa nor the Britain First.  Both use similar tactics of violence and intimidation yet some believe only one side should be subject to criticism.  And what nutcase turned it into an Antifa debate?  As far as I can tell both Britain First and Antifa were introduced in the same post.

 

27 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

We all want to make the world a better place right? Maybe a Politics Thread NY resolution could be to debate the issues raised rather than continual whataboutwhentheysaidthat?

And in other whataboutwhentheysaidthat news don't forget yesterday's anti-semitic graffiti in London;

https://news.sky.com/story/shock-and-horror-as-antisemitic-graffiti-daubed-on-shops-and-london-synagogue-11897224

Whilst I can see the irony countering your islamophobia with anti-semitism this forum does have a history of being quick off the mark pointing out facts such as Brtain First, Katie Hopkins, Tommy Robinson join the Tories etc whilst at the same time remaining silent or not passing judgement on violence committed by their own.  

Maybe a New Years resolution to stick to the facts would be helpful, but we'd probably only have to repeat ourselves a few pages later if we didn't give the responses people wanted to hear.  Did anyone ever post a good reason for Brexit...?

[GboroRam]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

Although the point I and others are making is that we condone neither Antifa nor the Britain First.  Both use similar tactics of violence and intimidation yet some believe only one side should be subject to criticism.  

That's like comparing chemo to cancer.

[maxjam]

4 hours ago, GboroRam said:

That's like comparing chemo to cancer.

Erm thats an odd analogy ? 

Personally I don't believe that violence is the answer.  We have a very good police service in this country and some of the strongest hate speech laws in the world, we don't need masked thugs inflaming already volatile situations. 

[maxjam]

Excellent article in today's Daily Mail - yes I know some of you will shrug your shoulders cos its the Daily Mail, but this sort of article will never appear in the Guardian and it has been written by Trevor Phillips the black former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7838439/Schools-afraid-help-white-boys-lunacy-helps-no-one-writes-TREVOR-PHILLIPS.html?ito=amp_twitter_share-bottom

It ties in several conversations we've had in this thread over the past few weeks about grooming gangs, the Lake District and political correctness - although it doesn't use the exact words political correctness so it probably still won't exist to some.

[GboroRam]

19 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Excellent article in today's Daily Mail - yes I know some of you will shrug your shoulders cos its the Daily Mail, but this sort of article will never appear in the Guardian and it has been written by Trevor Phillips the black former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7838439/Schools-afraid-help-white-boys-lunacy-helps-no-one-writes-TREVOR-PHILLIPS.html?ito=amp_twitter_share-bottom

It ties in several conversations we've had in this thread over the past few weeks about grooming gangs, the Lake District and political correctness - although it doesn't use the exact words political correctness so it probably still won't exist to some.

I wish we could get away from looking at race and start to look at poverty. Why not focus more resource where there is stark poverty?

I guess you'd by the same process focus more resource in predominantly black and minority areas than predominantly white. Because that's where a lot of the need is.

[ariotofmyown]

15 hours ago, maxjam said:

Although the point I and others are making is that we condone neither Antifa nor the Britain First.  Both use similar tactics of violence and intimidation yet some believe only one side should be subject to criticism.  And what nutcase turned it into an Antifa debate?  As far as I can tell both Britain First and Antifa were introduced in the same post.

 

And in other whataboutwhentheysaidthat news don't forget yesterday's anti-semitic graffiti in London;

https://news.sky.com/story/shock-and-horror-as-antisemitic-graffiti-daubed-on-shops-and-london-synagogue-11897224

Whilst I can see the irony countering your islamophobia with anti-semitism this forum does have a history of being quick off the mark pointing out facts such as Brtain First, Katie Hopkins, Tommy Robinson join the Tories etc whilst at the same time remaining silent or not passing judgement on violence committed by their own.  

Maybe a New Years resolution to stick to the facts would be helpful, but we'd probably only have to repeat ourselves a few pages later if we didn't give the responses people wanted to hear.  Did anyone ever post a good reason for Brexit...?

I'd prefer it if you didn't imply that I was on a side that is cool with anti-semetic graffiti. I think your side need to stop responding to accusations of racism with counter arguments of racism. Especially when people like Robinson, Hopkins, Britain First and Johnson are almost certainly anti-semetic too.

Just because you call out the irony, doesn't mean you escape with your usual whataboutery in trying to deflect what I posted. You must be fine with Johnson using slurs to mock people who are different because it's "freedom of speech". You don't care about the real life impact of what happens when a Prime Minister is on the record giving a green light to bigotry.

But you'll never address these points, you'll just go on about Corbyn been an anti-semite, or Antifa, or Diane Abbot etc.

[maxjam]

9 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I wish we could get away from looking at race and start to look at poverty. Why not focus more resource where there is stark poverty?

I guess you'd by the same process focus more resource in predominantly black and minority areas than predominantly white. Because that's where a lot of the need is.

Depends how you look at it though, there are a lot more white kids living in poverty than there are black/asian kids simply because we're a majority white country. 

As the article says though schools are happy to receive donations to help black kids from the likes of Stormzy etc but won't accept donations to help white kids because 'it looks bad'. 

How about regardless of colour we just help the kids/people that need it the most.  If I had one wish for 2020 it would be to get rid of all this identity politics/political correctness crap and start treating people as individuals. 

[maxjam]

12 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I'd prefer it if you didn't imply that I was on a side that is cool with anti-semetic graffiti. I think your side need to stop responding to accusations of racism with counter arguments of racism. Especially when people like Robinson, Hopkins, Britain First and Johnson are almost certainly anti-semetic too.

Apologies if you thought I implied that you were cool with anti-semetic graffiti I was just making a general point about this forum being quick to point out the fault of the right whilst ignoring the faults of the left. 

 

12 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

ust because you call out the irony, doesn't mean you escape with your usual whataboutery in trying to deflect what I posted. You must be fine with Johnson using slurs to mock people who are different because it's "freedom of speech". You don't care about the real life impact of what happens when a Prime Minister is on the record giving a green light to bigotry.

But you'll never address these points, you'll just go on about Corbyn been an anti-semite, or Antifa, or Diane Abbot etc.

I've addressed them in the past.  In the run up to the election I said I couldn't vote for this current Tory lot despite wanting Brexit.  Johnson has made several inappropriate comments in the past, lets hope he has learned from his mistakes and doesn't repeat them. 

Regardless of what either side has done however the discussion was about Antifa and their actions and I firmly believe that you do not counter arguments in a civilized country with violence. 

[ariotofmyown]

42 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Excellent article in today's Daily Mail - yes I know some of you will shrug your shoulders cos its the Daily Mail, but this sort of article will never appear in the Guardian and it has been written by Trevor Phillips the black former head of the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7838439/Schools-afraid-help-white-boys-lunacy-helps-no-one-writes-TREVOR-PHILLIPS.html?ito=amp_twitter_share-bottom

It ties in several conversations we've had in this thread over the past few weeks about grooming gangs, the Lake District and political correctness - although it doesn't use the exact words political correctness so it probably still won't exist to some.

I think we need better ideas to help poor kids other than giving yet more cash to elite schools so a handful of them can get ridiculed by their posh classmates.

He also seems to agree with trying to encourage more non-whites to the lake district and has even done it himself in the past.

The end of the article is a bit weird as he seems to be implying that non-white poor kids in cities are inherently more violent than white poor kids in seaside towns. I imagine it might be more to do with areas targeted by criminal drug gangs. You will probably shift more coke in London than in a rundown seaside town, especially with so many jounos/Tory MPs on your doorstep.

[GboroRam]

26 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Depends how you look at it though, there are a lot more white kids living in poverty than there are black/asian kids simply because we're a majority white country. 

You have to look at the proportions not the overall number. Or else you can't see if you've got a marginalised minority, because they are just lost in the numbers.

[ariotofmyown]

15 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Apologies if you thought I implied that you were cool with anti-semetic graffiti I was just making a general point about this forum being quick to point out the fault of the right whilst ignoring the faults of the left. 

 

Cheers and I also assume you don't think the "left" is anti-semetic either? There are probably a few idiots who think of themselves as left wing who are also anti-semetic, but I would guess they are massively in the minority. 

Unfortunately, I do think racist ideas are firmly embedded in the right, and especially in this new, right wing Tory party. I don't know if they have done it already, but you would hope the Tories would reject support from such people as Hopkins, Tommy Robinson and Britain First. They got a big majority by pandering to right wing ideas. Surely it would be low risk now to reject this type of thing and try and reach out back towards the centre. 

[maxjam]

23 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I think we need better ideas to help poor kids other than giving yet more cash to elite schools so a handful of them can get ridiculed by their posh classmates.

He also seems to agree with trying to encourage more non-whites to the lake district and has even done it himself in the past.

The end of the article is a bit weird as he seems to be implying that non-white poor kids in cities are inherently more violent than white poor kids in seaside towns. I imagine it might be more to do with areas targeted by criminal drug gangs. You will probably shift more coke in London than in a rundown seaside town, especially with so many jounos/Tory MPs on your doorstep.

Re. the Lake District I think the point he was trying to make was to encourage people to enjoy it for what it is, not to change it to attract a more diverse audience. 

As for your last paragraph thats maybe one aspect, another is that black kids are more likely to come from broken familes and get their sense of belonging from their gang - which in turn leads to conflicts with rival gangs.  There are probably a many more issues that feed into the end result of black kids killing each other just as there are with asian grooming gangs targetting white girls but until we drop political correctness and accept that its not racist to target the groups committing the crimes and understand the reasoning behind their actions the problems will continue to grow.

For example;

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/grooming-gangs-child-sex-abuse-victims-rotherham-rochdale-latest-a9264656.html

Almost 20k crimes against children last year alone, thats a quarter of the overall total committed by a tiny percentage of the population - and its growing year on year. 

[maxjam]

11 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

You have to look at the proportions not the overall number. Or else you can't see if you've got a marginalised minority, because they are just lost in the numbers.

I agree, but there are still many more white kids living in poverty than there are others - just because a higher relative overall percentage of black kids for example are living in poverty doesn't make that any better.  

The point the article was making was that its okay for schools/whatever to accept donations helping black kids but its politically uncomfortable to accept similar donations to help white kids.  If it was up to me, I'd just help kids.

[maxjam]

9 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Unfortunately, I do think racist ideas are firmly embedded in the right, and especially in this new, right wing Tory party. I don't know if they have done it already, but you would hope the Tories would reject support from such people as Hopkins, Tommy Robinson and Britain First. They got a big majority by pandering to right wing ideas. Surely it would be low risk now to reject this type of thing and try and reach out back towards the centre. 

I would argue different, racism comes from both the right and the left.  I would also argue that the left is far more receptive of radicalism than the right but thats a topic for next week when I'm killing time whilst 'working' ?

[GboroRam]

19 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I would argue different, racism comes from both the right and the left.  I would also argue that the left is far more receptive of radicalism than the right but thats a topic for next week when I'm killing time whilst 'working' ?

I can't agree with that. The left embraces globalism, the right embraces nationalism. Identity politics on the left causes that to break down, but is identity politics truly left wing? I'd argue not. Left wing politics is about workers rights - the other stuff is fluff on the outskirts.

[King Kevin]

Inflation busting rise in the minimum wage by the Tories who would have thunked it.

[maxjam]

5 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I can't agree with that. The left embraces globalism, the right embraces nationalism. Identity politics on the left causes that to break down, but is identity politics truly left wing? I'd argue not. Left wing politics is about workers rights - the other stuff is fluff on the outskirts.

I think you'll find that you will embrace 'progressive patriotism' if Rebecca Long Bailey gets the top job!

Isn't that just a sugar coated way of saying nationalism, so that lefties will swallow it?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/29/rebecca-long-bailey-labour-party-britain

I'd argue that identity politics is pushed heavily by the left, the right are more concerned about the individual. 

[Curtains]

Has Corbyn gone yet