The Politics Thread 2019

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, McRamFan said:

 

JRM should resign, because he clearly demonstrated that he had no full understanding of the actual facts.

Opening his mouth before he knew all the facts is stupid but not having a full understanding of them is hardly a resignation matter.

[G STAR RAM]

3 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

And it's not the environment, which is what they said at launch that this election had to be about.

Of course I can see why they're doing it. It's just a shame that voters will have a much reduced choice in many areas.

Just more silly political games going to show that inside their little bubble they still havent grasped the feelings of an awoken nation.

If your message is good enough, you dont need to make alliances, people will vote for you.

[Stive Pesley]

31 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

What company is this please?

He doesn't run the company, but he was being paid an inordinate amount of money to provide consultancy to them.

You'll remember that I provided the evidence further back in the thread. The upward trajectory of their hedge fund directly correlated to the fall in the pound since the Brexit vote. I can't be bothered to check but I thought we agreed that it was indeed unethical to be paid as an MP, making decisions in parliament that devalue the pound, whilst also being paid to advise a hedge fund how to get rich off the back of those votes?

The bit you took issue with was that he owned the company (he does not) and that he personally profited from the investments (no available evidence either way)

[Stive Pesley]

10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

If your message is good enough, you dont need to make alliances, people will vote for you.

Agree with that. Just heard Chris Williamson on Radio Derby saying he will stand as an Independent and is urging the Labour Party to not stand a candidate in Derby North. FFS - as if we need this sort of brinksmanship right now? 

I've lost all respect for CW to be honest - he is showing a level of arrogance that no MP should show. Thinks it's all about him, and meanwhile the future of my seat is at stake

 

[G STAR RAM]

14 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

He doesn't run the company, but he was being paid an inordinate amount of money to provide consultancy to them.

You'll remember that I provided the evidence further back in the thread. The upward trajectory of their hedge fund directly correlated to the fall in the pound since the Brexit vote. I can't be bothered to check but I thought we agreed that it was indeed unethical to be paid as an MP, making decisions in parliament that devalue the pound, whilst also being paid to advise a hedge fund how to get rich off the back of those votes?

The bit you took issue with was that he owned the company (he does not) and that he personally profited from the investments (no available evidence either way)

Just confirming that saying he is running a company that he can influence via Parliament is incorrect.

Definitely agree that it would be unethical if he was, is this not the point of the Register of Interests?

Also doesnt the hedge fund invest in emerging markets? If so, failing to see any correlation to Brexit.

[Stive Pesley]

2 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Just confirming that saying he is running a company that he can influence via Parliament is incorrect.

Definitely agree that it would be unethical if he was, is this not the point of the Register of Interests?

Also doesnt the hedge fund invest in emerging markets? If so, failing to see any correlation to Brexit.

I couldn't find any details of what they were investing in - just the coincidental correlation of growth vs fall of pound.

You're right that it's all conjecture - and the register of interests doesn't actually help. It just confirms that he was paid a huge sum of money in consultancy. The register doesn't record what that consultancy was, what advice he gave them and/or how it related to his voting record. Would almost certainly be impossible to maintain a register like that accurately

Thing is - he's an upper class Tory and this is what they do. It's obvious what is going on, but they shroud it just enough that they can claim ignorance. And ordinary people like you seem weirdly keen to stick up for them (I'm assuming you are not upper class!)

[G STAR RAM]

37 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

I couldn't find any details of what they were investing in - just the coincidental correlation of growth vs fall of pound.

You're right that it's all conjecture - and the register of interests doesn't actually help. It just confirms that he was paid a huge sum of money in consultancy. The register doesn't record what that consultancy was, what advice he gave them and/or how it related to his voting record. Would almost certainly be impossible to maintain a register like that accurately

Thing is - he's an upper class Tory and this is what they do. It's obvious what is going on, but they shroud it just enough that they can claim ignorance. And ordinary people like you seem weirdly keen to stick up for them (I'm assuming you are not upper class!)

I'm just not sure how politics can progress and how reforms can be undertaken when the electorate make statements such as "Thing is - he's an upper class Tory and this is what they do" And think they dont need to provide any evidence to back the statement up.

You're the first to go on the defensive when people say Corbyn will destroy the economy because that is what they do!

[Uptherams]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'd say people had their default position as opposed to having made their minds up.

Both campaigns were just so awful that I doubt many changed their default position. 

Which is why all this bluster about campaigns and promises is completely unnecessary. It was an ideological vote, for either outcome. Until people accept that, there is no moving past this. 

[ariotofmyown]

27 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

Which is why all this bluster about campaigns and promises is completely unnecessary. It was an ideological vote, for either outcome. Until people accept that, there is no moving past this. 

That's why the referendum was such a shocking idea and is why we vote in MPs to make decisions on our behalf.

Most MPs in the last parliament know Brexit is bad idea. Many of the ones who are pro-Brexit know it will be bad for the economy but will be fine themselves. Or they are going along with it in the hope their Leave electorate will vote for them again.

Let's have a referendum to stop all taxation. I reckon it could win. Who wants to pay taxes eh. Booooooo! But it would be the will of the people. 

[ariotofmyown]

39 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'm just not sure how politics can progress and how reforms can be undertaken when the electorate make statements such as "Thing is - he's an upper class Tory and this is what they do" And think they dont need to provide any evidence to back the statement up.

You're the first to go on the defensive when people say Corbyn will destroy the economy because that is what they do!

You genuinely believe that is not what they do?!?! 

[Van der MoodHoover]

3 hours ago, GboroRam said:

I'll weigh up my options on the day. Would love to vote to keep the NHS but I think it's tory ot libdem here. Not even sure if Labour stand a candidate every time. 

I appear to have a choice between a conservative who was booted out but now is one of the reinstated 10, a LibDem who nobody has heard of, a Labour person who traditionally is a very distant 3rd/4th or the Greens.

 

what a cast of characters...…., not a philanderer, sex-pest or morally reprehensible Old Etonian amongst them - I thought that's what living darn sarf delivered for you !  ?

[Van der MoodHoover]

3 hours ago, Angry Ram said:

So if we follow that logic, we would not have any elected reps at all? I must assume that this 'resign' policy would apply Abbot et al ,when they show ignorance on any subject?

surprised at times that Diane Abbott can remember her way to the chamber...…..

[Angry Ram]

Just seen this on the HMRC website regarding the latest migration research. 

 

2.1 Work

There were 185,465 work-related visas granted in the year ending June 2019, 11% higher than the previous year, and the highest level since the year ending March 2009.

The majority (69%) of the increase in the latest year can be accounted for by Skilled (Tier 2) work visas, which increased by 13% to 108,890 following a relatively stable period between 2015 and 2018. This category accounts for 59% of work-related visas granted.

There were also increase in the number of Youth mobility and temporary worker (Tier 5) visas granted, up 7% to 43,122, and an increase in High-value (Tier 1) visas granted (up 36% to 7,492).

For further details see ʻWhy do people come to the UK? To work’ and the data tables.

 

And here was me thinking that our skilled workforce was leaving in droves and UKPLC was dead. Appears not so and working in this dead duck post Brexit economy, might not be so bad.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'm just not sure how politics can progress and how reforms can be undertaken when the electorate make statements such as "Thing is - he's an upper class Tory and this is what they do" And think they dont need to provide any evidence to back the statement up.

You're the first to go on the defensive when people say Corbyn will destroy the economy because that is what they do!

It's a good point - but actually as much as I "go on the defensive" I do 100% understand why people think like that. Because empathy isnt that difficult.

In the meantime the argument also works the other way. How will politics ever progress and reform while the elements of the electorate continue to give a free pass to the upper classes to continue to rinse us all. Doff that G Star cap and keep kneeling at the table hoping for some crumbs.

It's like you don't even want to accept the point I was making - that they are rich enough to pay people to keep the evidence just far enough out of sight. So to wail "but where is de evidence?" is laughable

[Van der MoodHoover]

13 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

Just seen this on the HMRC website regarding the latest migration research. 

 

2.1 Work

There were 185,465 work-related visas granted in the year ending June 2019, 11% higher than the previous year, and the highest level since the year ending March 2009.

The majority (69%) of the increase in the latest year can be accounted for by Skilled (Tier 2) work visas, which increased by 13% to 108,890 following a relatively stable period between 2015 and 2018. This category accounts for 59% of work-related visas granted.

There were also increase in the number of Youth mobility and temporary worker (Tier 5) visas granted, up 7% to 43,122, and an increase in High-value (Tier 1) visas granted (up 36% to 7,492).

For further details see ʻWhy do people come to the UK? To work’ and the data tables.

 

And here was me thinking that our skilled workforce was leaving in droves and UKPLC was dead. Appears not so and working in this dead duck post Brexit economy, might not be so bad.

I did a bit of reading and gleaned a few extra snippets

- should ignore the tier 5 as these seem mainly to be holiday jobs and charity workers - not high skilled stuff

-tier 2 includes the "shortage occupations" so that is all your doctors, nurses, teachers, engineers and so on. Which I must say sounds good. The sting in the tail is that the number in this category is limited to 20,000. All of the rest are either employees of multi-national companies who have mobility programs, or footballers or religious ministers.

-tier 1 is very scarce but mainly seems to call out investors, rather than people you'd generally recognise as being "valuable" professionals. 

[GboroRam]

32 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

 

what a cast of characters...…., not a known philanderer, sex-pest or morally reprehensible Old Etonian amongst them - I thought that's what living darn sarf delivered for you !  ?

Hmm. 

[G STAR RAM]

57 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

You genuinely believe that is not what they do?!?! 

I'm sure there are some that do, yes.

Do they all do it? I dont know but I'm certainly not going to just blindly accept that they do based on the evidence of 'it's what they always do'.

 

[G STAR RAM]

6 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

It's a good point - but actually as much as I "go on the defensive" I do 100% understand why people think like that. Because empathy isnt that difficult.

In the meantime the argument also works the other way. How will politics ever progress and reform while the elements of the electorate continue to give a free pass to the upper classes to continue to rinse us all. Doff that G Star cap and keep kneeling at the table hoping for some crumbs.

It's like you don't even want to accept the point I was making - that they are rich enough to pay people to keep the evidence just far enough out of sight. So to wail "but where is de evidence?" is laughable

Well Jeremy Corbyn is rich enough to do it too so should I just assume that he personally is doing the same?

The argument that they've got enough money to do it is pretty futile in my opinion.

[Stive Pesley]

6 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Well Jeremy Corbyn is rich enough to do it too so should I just assume that he personally is doing the same?

You have to use your gut instinct I'm afraid.

Some people are rich and the heady mix of money and power lead them down the path of greed, and let no man stand in their way.

Others are rich and thankful and see philanthropy as the path to take.

As I'm teaching you  life skills - here's a tip. If these rich people are politicians, the former are always Tories and the latter are not

[Van der MoodHoover]

36 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Hmm. 

well the Libdem leaflet has just dropped through the door and I must say he looks a clean cut chap who has fun in his knitwear......?