Out of their skin (racism again but please don't remove the thread)

[ronnieronalde]

Watching the debate on Sky tonight, christ but it's a minefield of a topic, Massive respect to anyone brave enough to discuss it openly on TV. It's a potential career ender if you get something wrong either side of the debate. 

Picked up on a mention of a documentary on  ITV4 called "out of their skin", unfortunately I think only the first episode of two which is available on youtube and I won't directly link the vid as I think something like that means it has more chance of being pulled as thread.

For anyone interested enough, its about black players and the challenges they faced in the early days. For those not interested, no need to google it and just ignore the post.

For me personally, even though the overall change has been unbelievably positive, it was a really tough watch, I felt sad, uplifted, angry, disgusted and hopeful all within forty odd minutes. In my opinion it's a brilliant watch and gives more insight than any chat, article or discussion I've ever seen anywhere else.

The Paul Canoville story literally had me blubbing, but then again I'm a bit of a blouse these days.

I'm not after this thread opening up old arguments or turning political again, so no worries if it gets no replies. In fact that might be better.

Watch it if you want, don't watch it if you don't want to.

[Spanish]

5 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

Watching the debate on Sky tonight, christ but it's a minefield of a topic, Massive respect to anyone brave enough to discuss it openly on TV. It's a potential career ender if you get something wrong either side of the debate. 

Picked up on a mention of a documentary on  ITV4 called "out of their skin", unfortunately I think only the first episode of two which is available on youtube and I won't directly link the vid as I think something like that means it has more chance of being pulled as thread.

For anyone interested enough, its about black players and the challenges they faced in the early days. For those not interested, no need to google it and just ignore the post.

For me personally, even though the overall change has been unbelievably positive, it was a really tough watch, I felt sad, uplifted, angry, disgusted and hopeful all within forty odd minutes. In my opinion it's a brilliant watch and gives more insight than any chat, article or discussion I've ever seen anywhere else.

The Paul Canoville story literally had me blubbing, but then again I'm a bit of a blouse these days.

I'm not after this thread opening up old arguments or turning political again, so no worries if it gets no replies. In fact that might be better.

Watch it if you want, don't watch it if you don't want to.

Didn’t know about this prog thanks for the heads up I will try to get to see it

[ariotofmyown]

Good news about Chelsea scum singing racist chants tonight a few days after they abused Sterling. Not.

It's hard not to get sad about things going back this way. Hopefully the outcry will stop more of it.

Would be good to hear Derby and Forest singing anti-racist chants together on Monday night.

"Stand up, if you hate racists" before the game starts. Let's be a force for good.

[i-Ram]

6 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Good news about Chelsea scum singing racist chants tonight a few days after they abused Sterling. Not.

It's hard not to get sad about things going back this way. Hopefully the outcry will stop more of it.

Would be good to hear Derby and Forest singing anti-racist chants together on Monday night.

"Stand up, if you hate racists" before the game starts. Let's be a force for good.

I doubt any fans outcry will help, but l do like the idea of a Fans movement singing anti-racist songs.

It is also about time Chelsea and Spurs showed more leadership from the front on the subject. Abramovic and Levy need to get out their ban hammer and keep racist views from being expressed off their terraces.

[Coneheadjohn]

Anyone got the video Jonno did that they show at PP about his experience?

[McRamFan]

The FA and the police have allowed Chelsea to get away with racism for years.  Anyone remember the knuckledraggers that stopped a black Parisian boarding the Paris Metro?

The club needs to have a few months of games with empty seats, away tickets suspended and a realy big fine.

[bigbadbob]

14 hours ago, i-Ram said:

I doubt any fans outcry will help, but l do like the idea of a Fans movement singing anti-racist songs.

It is also about time Chelsea and Spurs showed more leadership from the front on the subject. Abramovic and Levy need to get out their ban hammer and keep racist views from being expressed off their terraces.

Isn't abramovich jewish ? Are the thick Chelsea fans aware of.this ?

[Sith Happens]

Chelsea are two faced hypocrits.

How cana club allow chanting for this for so many years yet try and frame a referee for racism just because he made decisions they didn't like.

The only way to punish them is relegate them.

[McRamFan]

13 hours ago, bigbadbob said:

Isn't abramovich jewish ? Are the thick Chelsea fans aware of.this ?

He is discribed as Russian Jewish, May 2018 he became an Israeli citizen, mainly due to the fact that the UK suspended renewals of Russian travel visas.

[Sexydadbod]

One thing that is evident is how hypocritical people and pundits are. Sky sports are the ones now “backing” Sterling yet they were the ones who made up a sterling quote saying he would never use a gun again.

Then you have former players like Gary Lineker acting like a do-gooders by calling out those who criticised Sterling  but Lineker is one of those who say there are too many foreign players and managers in the premier league, same as talksport the other day as Moose was saying it would be a disaster if Leeds and Norwich were promoted because they have foreign managers. Can you imagine the outrage if someone said there are too many black players in the premier league? Both are forms of discrimination.

On the flip side, much of the “black community” don’t help themselves either, . Not saying sterling deserved the racist abuse but the community create an “us v them”  mentality, like sol Campbell saying that if he wasn’t black, he would have a top managerial job. No you wouldn’t Sol, stop trying to make excuses for the fact that you’re not as good as you think you are. I don’t look at Tomori or Huddlestone and think that they’re black. I see them as a Derby player like any other player.Then members of the black community coming out and saying “typical white people” doesn’t help. Racism works both ways. 

Sorry if I offended anyone but I needed to get it off my chest 

[Sexydadbod]

10 hours ago, Paul71 said:

Chelsea are two faced hypocrits.

How cana club allow chanting for this for so many years yet try and frame a referee for racism just because he made decisions they didn't like.

The only way to punish them is relegate them.

You’re absolutely right, but West Ham and spurs have been singing the same chants for years but they haven’t been criticised because they have friends in the media and has been laughed off as banter.

[BaaLocks]

10 minutes ago, McLovin said:

One thing that is evident is how hypocritical people and pundits are. Sky sports are the ones now “backing” Sterling yet they were the ones who made up a sterling quote saying he would never use a gun again.

Then you have former players like Gary Lineker acting like a do-gooders by calling out those who criticised Sterling  but Lineker is one of those who say there are too many foreign players and managers in the premier league, same as talksport the other day as Moose was saying it would be a disaster if Leeds and Norwich were promoted because they have foreign managers. Can you imagine the outrage if someone said there are too many black players in the premier league? Both are forms of discrimination.

On the flip side, much of the “black community” don’t help themselves either, . Not saying sterling deserved the racist abuse but the community create an “us v them”  mentality, like sol Campbell saying that if he wasn’t black, he would have a top managerial job. No you wouldn’t Sol, stop trying to make excuses for the fact that you’re not as good as you think you are. I don’t look at Tomori or Huddlestone and think that they’re black. I see them as a Derby player like any other player.Then members of the black community coming out and saying “typical white people” doesn’t help. Racism works both ways. 

Sorry if I offended anyone but I needed to get it off my chest 

Some very confused thinking here.

1: Criticising Sterling for having a gun tattoo has got nothing to do with them now backing his comments around racism.

2: Gary Lineker, or anyone else, can have a view on the number of foreign managers and still be able to comment on those who criticised Sterling. The two points are absoutely not connected and to try to conflate them belies the point.

3: Moose can say that he thinks that foreign managers are not good for domestic development without being racist. Which is why the point about someone saying there are too many black players is flawed. That would be racist, Moose's position - while I don't agree with it - is not.

4: Sol Campbell is not making excuses, he is making a point. Lampard, Gerard, Terry and others get fast tracked into high profle roles while he can only find a role at Macclesfield. It might be because he doesn't interview well or has a reputation but the paucity of black managers is an absoutely valid point he is making with personal reference.

5: Sorry to hear you feel members of the black community are describing 'typical white people'. I've never seen or experienced this, either personally or in the media and a quick Google search of the phrase seems to suggest that nobody has actually come out and said this. If I may, not particularly helpful to put out suggestions like this without clear and direct reference.

6: Racism does work both ways, in theory, but to suggest 'much of the black community' are somehow not helping themselves is far from the way to move forward. You do realise you just made an observation of a whole section of society based on no common factor than their skin colour?

As the original poster commented, this is a minefield of a topic but I think you might have been better off to keep that one on your chest.

[Sexydadbod]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

Some very confused thinking here.

1: Criticising Sterling for having a gun tattoo has got nothing to do with them now backing his comments around racism.

2: Gary Lineker, or anyone else, can have a view on the number of foreign managers and still be able to comment on those who criticised Sterling. The two points are absoutely not connected and to try to conflate them belies the point.

3: Moose can say that he thinks that foreign managers are not good for domestic development without being racist. Which is why the point about someone saying there are too many black players is flawed. That would be racist, Moose's position - while I don't agree with it - is not.

4: Sol Campbell is not making excuses, he is making a point. Lampard, Gerard, Terry and others get fast tracked into high profle roles while he can only find a role at Macclesfield. It might be because he doesn't interview well or has a reputation but the paucity of black managers is an absoutely valid point he is making with personal reference.

5: Sorry to hear you feel members of the black community are describing 'typical white people'. I've never seen or experienced this, either personally or in the media and a quick Google search of the phrase seems to suggest that nobody has actually come out and said this. If I may, not particularly helpful to put out suggestions like this without clear and direct reference.

6: Racism does work both ways, in theory, but to suggest 'much of the black community' are somehow not helping themselves is far from the way to move forward. You do realise you just made an observation of a whole section of society based on no common factor than their skin colour?

As the original poster commented, this is a minefield of a topic but I think you might have been better off to keep that one on your chest.

1. Sky were one of those who Sterling was referencing when it he was criticising the media( I believe it was on his Instagram story or on snapchat that sterling called them out at the time?)

2. Whether you’re criticising black or foreign people, discrimination is still discrimination. Advocating that one set of people shouldn’t be given preference because they don’t happen to be from Britain whilst criticising those who wrote about Sterling in the media is hypocritical.

3. See above 

4. He is making excuses. It’s the same as the foreign manager argument. If you’re good enough, people will approach you regardless to become their manager. Guardiola, Zidane and many other top players turned managers had to start at a lesser level(b teams). And picking a person just to fit a quota is positive discrimination. Let’s say we had a choice of Campbell and Lampard to be our manager, we’d want the best candidate wouldn’t we? Not just to fill a quota. If Sol Campbell felt that he was discriminated against, why didn’t he do something about it to expose the racists, I.e court proceedings? 

5. I suggest you look at social media to see the racism after the sterling incident. Casual racism works both ways. A black person being racist to a white person is still evident and vice versa.

6. I’m part African so I like to think I know what I’m talking about and have experienced racist abuse myself in the past. The best way forward is to be equal and cooperation. And yes, many members of the black community create an us v them mentality, I’ve seen and witnessed it many times myself in the past. There are racist white people, there are racist black people. Why does it have to be us v them? 

 

[bigbadbob]

1 hour ago, McLovin said:

1. Sky were one of those who Sterling was referencing when it he was criticising the media( I believe it was on his Instagram story or on snapchat that sterling called them out at the time?)

2. Whether you’re criticising black or foreign people, discrimination is still discrimination. Advocating that one set of people shouldn’t be given preference because they don’t happen to be from Britain whilst criticising those who wrote about Sterling in the media is hypocritical.

3. See above 

4. He is making excuses. It’s the same as the foreign manager argument. If you’re good enough, people will approach you regardless to become their manager. Guardiola, Zidane and many other top players turned managers had to start at a lesser level(b teams). And picking a person just to fit a quota is positive discrimination. Let’s say we had a choice of Campbell and Lampard to be our manager, we’d want the best candidate wouldn’t we? Not just to fill a quota. If Sol Campbell felt that he was discriminated against, why didn’t he do something about it to expose the racists, I.e court proceedings? 

5. I suggest you look at social media to see the racism after the sterling incident. Casual racism works both ways. A black person being racist to a white person is still evident and vice versa.

6. I'm part african so I like to think I know what I’m talking about and have experienced racist abuse myself in the past. The best way forward is to be equal and cooperation. And yes, many members of the black community create an us v them mentality, I’ve seen and witnessed it many times myself in the past. There are racist white people, there are racist black people. Why does it have to be us v them? 

 

Which part?

[Sexydadbod]

1 minute ago, bigbadbob said:

Which part?

The big boy down there ?. 

[i-Ram]

13 minutes ago, McLovin said:

Have you experienced racism in the past?

I am 57.  Over those many years l have witnessed it, experienced it and on the odd occasion, mainly in my younger days, contributed to it. I’m no expert on the subject though.

[Sexydadbod]

From my experience and knowledge, many in the black community and other ethnic minority groups just want to be seen as normal and not predjudice or receive special treatment for that matter because of the colour of our skin . We/they want to be the same as others in this country. Me personally, I don’t want to be differentiated because of the colour of my skin but feel that others in the community prevent us moving forward. Sure racism is a problem but there are also many in our specific ethnic minority communities create an us v them(white) mentality like Sol Campbell and do subtle digs against those who are of a different colour to ourselves(which I and others don’t like). There are many successful black managers, Chris Hughton is an example. Seedorf got the Ac Milan managerial job.  Racism works both ways sadly. I don’t look at my friends and think that they’re a different colour to myself, I just see them as my friends. 

I appreciate that many on this thread will be white so I thought I’d give my interpretation of racism in this country.

[BaaLocks]

2 hours ago, McLovin said:

2. Whether you’re criticising black or foreign people, discrimination is still discrimination. Advocating that one set of people shouldn’t be given preference because they don’t happen to be from Britain whilst criticising those who wrote about Sterling in the media is hypocritical. Did you hear that whooshing sound when the point went over your head? Nobody is saying you should discriminate against people not from Britain but some are saying that having a lot of foreign managers does not allow domestic talent the opportunity to develop.

3. See above 

4. He is making excuses. It’s the same as the foreign manager argument. If you’re good enough, people will approach you regardless to become their manager. Guardiola, Zidane and many other top players turned managers had to start at a lesser level(b teams). And picking a person just to fit a quota is positive discrimination. Let’s say we had a choice of Campbell and Lampard to be our manager, we’d want the best candidate wouldn’t we? Not just to fill a quota. If Sol Campbell felt that he was discriminated against, why didn’t he do something about it to expose the racists, I.e court proceedings? Guardiola's first top flight job was Barcelona, Zidane's was Real Madrid. Strange definition of 'lesser level' - but I'm thinking you know that and just wrote it for the bite.

5. I suggest you look at social media to see the racism after the sterling incident. Casual racism works both ways. A black person being racist to a white person is still evident and vice versa. As is a part-African being sweepingly condescending of 'the black community'

6. I’m part African so I like to think I know what I’m talking about and have experienced racist abuse myself in the past. The best way forward is to be equal and cooperation. And yes, many members of the black community create an us v them mentality, I’ve seen and witnessed it many times myself in the past. There are racist white people, there are racist black people. Why does it have to be us v them? So, as many members are doing it then you should be able to make some references quickly and easily so we can all understand that you have a genuine point and have not just generalised a view based on nothing more than personal opinion. BTW - no way of knowing if you are part African but I am pretty aware you are very much part Troll.

I'll leave it at that, out of respect for the original poster who wasn't asking for a big debate on the topic but I will say that if you are part African (we all are btw - 70,000 years ago) you have a very strange way of trying to make your case - the rather stereotypical response to the question above only serving to help me conclude that there's no point spending any more time on this discussion.

 

 

[Sexydadbod]

@BaaLocks I’ll quote you on here because it’s easier to read that way. I’ll deal with the Zidane and Guardiola point first. I put the Real Madrid and Barcelona ‘b’ teams. They had to start at a lesser level as well.

There’s a reason why non-British managers are chosen, because the European managers are at a higher standard. Let’s word it this way, we should stop choosing black young English players because it’s preventing the young English white players from developing, you would agree  that’s racist right? The same applies saying not to choose  foreign players/managers, it’s still discrimination. 

I won’t deal with the rest of your post because it’s troll like and you seem to dislike what I’ve posted. I’ve given my honest interpretation speaking as a non-white person. Racism is clearly a problem still in this country but another issue is that racism exists on both sides too. Sure there are many like myself brought up to respect all races and to not differentiate. However, there are many brought by their families (speaking from experience) to almost dislike those of a different colour(predominantly white)  due to the sins of the past, not quite to the point of radicalisation though. Just because you don’t know it happens, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. I’m swaying a bit off topic here but that’s how radicalisation of British people take place and why some decide to resort to extreme members I.e joining Isis to “make those of a different colour suffer”. Educating the racists is important, but equally educating less affluent ethnic minority groups is also important and to encourage integration with those of a different colour like I was.

[McRainy]