Tin Hat On

[RamNut]

Vydra is a good lad. There's nothing wrong with his attitude. Other than he hates losing?

but he will be sold in the summer.

We own a ferrari that we can't afford. It has to go.

[RoyMac5]

4 minutes ago, TroyDyer said:

Ince was a myth. "He's lazy!" "He's a one trick pony". Wrong. Wrong. 

Losing Ince and replacing him, for the same money, with Tom Lawrence has to be one of the worst bits of business we've done in a while. And that's saying something. 

We've lost a player that created goals, could score from anywhere, change the game in a heartbeat, and worked his balls off tracking back and winning challenges in his own box. We've replaced him with a player that creates very little, dives a fair bit and saunters back when we've lost possession. 

I do wonder whether Lawrence would be more of an 'Ince replacement' under a different manager?

[RoyMac5]

4 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

Not gonna requote the whole thing but I’ve been saying this for a long time and it’s the nail on the bloomin head.

Watching Wolves last week showed the differences to me, they attacked and defended as a unit and everyone knew their positions and where to be. No last ditch tackling, no busting a gut because you are out of position. People won’t like me saying it but we haven’t seen us be that unit since 13/14.

That's not down to Vydra it's down to how Vydra is being played!

[TroyDyer]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I do wonder whether Lawrence would be more of an 'Ince replacement' under a different manager?

Perhaps he would. Tactics may affect his game. But I don't believe GR has said "If you lose the ball, don't worry about tracking back. Just take your time" or "Whether you are taking a corner, or have the ball 30 yards from goal, just smack it as hard as you can and see what happens".

[TuffLuff]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

That's not down to Vydra it's down to how Vydra is being played!

Yup, I don’t disagree. 

[Jourdan]

2 hours ago, sage said:

If you read my post I acknowledge that there are other issues, including the wingers.

However if we are to improve and get new wingers, a left back, a mobile CM and a CF we need to sell and Vydra would raise by far the most money.

 

Yes, after the season he has had, Vydra will be our most in demand player and our most saleable asset. This I completely agree with.

If we sell Vydra for the greater good, to move the team forward, it’s something we can all get behind.

But would we actually get a good deal for the club, would we actually invest it wisely and would Rowett actually be able to improve us?

What transpired after the Ince, Christie and Hughes sales suggests not.

If we were set up like Brentford who operate on a modest budget and pick up promising players from the lower leagues and abroad and try to add value to them, I would have no qualms with selling Vydra.

But we haven’t operated like that for five years now.

The problem for me is that Lawrence and Wisdom made up the majority of our investment last summer and both have massively underwhelmed - one we’ve persisted with and the other has been often overlooked in favour of the evergreen Chris Baird.

That is £7.5 million worth of talent there and we are not getting £7.5 million of output. We are certainly not getting added value.

If we were, selling Vydra wouldn’t even need to be a consideration.

[duncanjwitham]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

I do wonder whether Lawrence would be more of an 'Ince replacement' under a different manager?

And likewise, whether Ince would be anywhere near as effective under Rowett as he was under every other manager.

[Mostyn6]

It’s a good theory but I don’t think it’s right. Our problem is simply a lack of energy in middle of midfield. For all the ability of Huddlestone, Ledley, Johnson and Thorne, there is a massive lack of mobility, energy and pace. Compare to any successful team at this level. 

[TomBustler1884]

I don't like reading all this "We got rid of X and replaced him with Y"

Ince and Hughes both wanted moves to the Premier League, I don't think there was any desire from Derby to get rid of either of them. Ideal world I'm sure we would rather have kept both, but under the circumstances, our hands were tied. We would not have benefitted from keeping Ince here against his will.

We are where we are and I still think Lawrence has potential. Hughes hasn't been replaced and I'm not sure how that would be possible to be honest.

If Rowett is questioning the desire of his players to get into the playoffs, then he has a choice to make. Hope that his statement provokes them into showing a bit more and performing. Or he drops them and gives some youngsters a go who will be given a break by the crowd and tell them don't worry about the result, just get out there and show what it means to you to play professional football.

I'd like to see the latter.

Sorry, a few random comments thrown together there!

[sage]

12 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Yes, after the season he has had, Vydra will be our most in demand player and our most saleable asset. This I completely agree with.

If we sell Vydra for the greater good, to move the team forward, it’s something we can all get behind.

But would we actually get a good deal for the club, would we actually invest it wisely and would Rowett actually be able to improve us?

What transpired after the Ince, Christie and Hughes sales suggests not.

If we were set up like Brentford who operate on a modest budget and pick up promising players from the lower leagues and abroad and try to add value to them, I would have no qualms with selling Vydra.

But we haven’t operated like that for five years now.

The problem for me is that Lawrence and Wisdom made up the majority of our investment last summer and both have massively underwhelmed - one we’ve persisted with and the other has been often overlooked in favour of the evergreen Chris Baird.

That is £7.5 million worth of talent there and we are not getting £7.5 million of output. We are certainly not getting added value.

If we were, selling Vydra wouldn’t even need to be a consideration.

You can't employ a manager and say we can't trust you with any transfer fees. If that is your view then you are effectively saying sack Rowett.

Lawrence certainly has been disappointing. However I see you sidestep mention of Davies and Huddlestone which have been excellent and good signings respectively. 

Jerome however is another matter...

Either back him or sack him...

 

[sage]

1 minute ago, Moist One said:

It’s a good theory but I don’t think it’s right. Our problem is simply a lack of energy in middle of midfield. For all the ability of Huddlestone, Ledley, Johnson and Thorne, there is a massive lack of mobility, energy and pace. Compare to any successful team at this level. 

I agree that is a major part of the problem as I alluded to in the OP, but how are we going to rectify that and the other areas without selling Vydra?.  

[cannable]

14 minutes ago, TomBustler1884 said:

I don't like reading all this "We got rid of X and replaced him with Y"

Ince and Hughes both wanted moves to the Premier League, I don't think there was any desire from Derby to get rid of either of them. Ideal world I'm sure we would rather have kept both, but under the circumstances, our hands were tied. We would not have benefitted from keeping Ince here against his will.

The Price of Football piece suggests we needed them out before July. We received money for Ince before the transfer was even announced.

[Jourdan]

10 minutes ago, sage said:

You can't employ a manager and say we can't trust you with any transfer fees. If that is your view then you are effectively saying sack Rowett.

Lawrence certainly has been disappointing. However I see you sidestep mention of Davies and Huddlestone which have been excellent and good signings respectively. 

Jerome however is another matter...

Either back him or sack him...

 

Isn’t that the whole idea of setting out budgets? You back the manager with what you can afford, what you think he will use wisely, or until he earns more trust. Like Clough and GSE. It doesn’t have to be back him or sack him.

All I am saying is that if our plan is to sell for the greater good then surely we need to be looking for better value than we currently are getting, or perhaps giving more opportunities to our Academy players to create more avenues for saleable assets.

I thought it went without saying that Davies, Huddlestone and Ledley have been among our better performers but you would expect this from three experienced pros with years of top level experience.

But even though they cost a combined £2.5 million in fees, without promotion, I think we will find it unsustainable to keep all three of them on the wage bill and to build the team around these players. So these signings were very much with a short term view, no?

All in all, I don’t see the sense in selling Vydra for the greater good unless there is a clear remit in place. Rowett’s transfer business suggests nothing is clear.

[TomBustler1884]

44 minutes ago, cannable said:

The Price of Football piece suggests we needed them out before July. We received money for Ince before the transfer was even announced.

And that's fair enough, but there's no doubt in my mind that both players, once aware of a PL move, would have been straight on go the manager and chairman saying they wanted the move.

It seems sometimes that people assume they were sold purely because Rowett didn't want them. It's not true, the club needed the money and they were saleable assets, and the players wanted to go, never mind Rowetts thoughts.

[sage]

33 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Isn’t that the whole idea of setting out budgets? You back the manager with what you can afford, what you think he will use wisely, or until he earns more trust. Like Clough and GSE. It doesn’t have to be back him or sack him.

All I am saying is that if our plan is to sell for the greater good then surely we need to be looking for better value than we currently are getting, or perhaps giving more opportunities to our Academy players to create more avenues for saleable assets.

I thought it went without saying that Davies, Huddlestone and Ledley have been among our better performers but you would expect this from three experienced pros with years of top level experience.

But even though they cost a combined £2.5 million in fees, without promotion, I think we will find it unsustainable to keep all three of them on the wage bill and to build the team around these players. So these signings were very much with a short term view, no?

All in all, I don’t see the sense in selling Vydra for the greater good unless there is a clear remit in place. Rowett’s transfer business suggests nothing is clear.

So if you aren't selling Vydra, what would you do I the summer?

[Mostyn6]

59 minutes ago, sage said:

I agree that is a major part of the problem as I alluded to in the OP, but how are we going to rectify that and the other areas without selling Vydra?.  

I generally try to avoid making players better when they are gone, but that kid Bryson at Cardiff, I reckon we could get him for nothing next season! 

[sage]

Just now, Moist One said:

I generally try to avoid making players better when they are gone, but that kid Bryson at Cardiff, I reckon we could get him for nothing next season! 

Bryson is an intriguing one. Presuming GR wants to play the same system, where would you play Bryson and with whom?

[duncanjwitham]

14 minutes ago, sage said:

Bryson is an intriguing one. Presuming GR wants to play the same system, where would you play Bryson and with whom?

There's just no point having Bryson here if we're playing the same system. If you play him in the sitting roles he's completely wasted - his best attribute is his off-the-ball running, and he can't do that from there.  If you play him in the middle of the 3, we're back to the same set of problems with Vydra - his game is all about making runs beyond the striker, not receiving the ball, getting his head up and picking passes.

[Jourdan]

6 minutes ago, sage said:

So if you aren't selling Vydra, what would you do I the summer?

Call up Jorge Mendes...

[Jourdan]

44 minutes ago, sage said:

So if you aren't selling Vydra, what would you do I the summer?

I would sell Carson and Keogh.