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sage

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Is Vydra a big part of the problem with the team in the same way that Ince was? (IMO).

You can trace Derby's decline under McLaren MkI in part to Ince's arrival and how it changed the way we played as a team. He scored goals but everything went through him and other players suffered as did the team.

Vydra has had an outstanding season in terms of goals. This is to a great extent down to his amazing shot to goal ratio which I think was around 80% until recently. However, no-one can score at that ratio season after season and it has papered over the cracks of how few chances we have created this season. I am not blaming Vydra. He is a second striker being asked to play on the Number 10 role, a role that Toral played in at Brum, a totally different type of player. Vydra doesn't have the skills set to link the midfield to the CF and wingers and nor does he have the ability to drop into midfield and help out Huddlestone and Ledley when they are being overrun.    

I hope that Vydra can score a few more goals between now and the end of the season so he may attract a large transfer fee to help fund team regeneration (no-one else would raise more than £2m) and enable us to have a more balanced team if we are to play the same system next season. 

Obviously this is only one of many issues with the team (LB, a DCM with pace, wingers and CF) but it is one that needs to be resolved IMO to enable us to address the other deficiencies. 

I shall retire to bed now and await the scorn in the morning.

 

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Ince wasn't a big part of the problem in the team. People just used that to detract from him. They knew they couldn't use his performances, because he played well and so made that flaky reasoning. Same as for Vydra, he has definitely 100% won us more games than he's lost us. I disagree with the reasoning he doesn't help out in the midfield too!

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TobyWanKenobi

I suppose we do need to source another scapegoat since Keogh isn't in the team. Vydra is as good as any! Booooooooo Vydra! Boooooooo,

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Vydra has had an outstanding season and I dare say without his contribution, we’d be 17th rather than 7th and still with a good shot of finishing in the play-offs.

We would be daft to sell him because not only would we miss his goals, but we probably wouldn’t extract enough profit out of the sale to make it worth our while, and Rowett might not even invest it wisely.

For me, a player like Tom Lawrence is a much bigger part of the problem.

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Vydra has played a big role but that does not mean Sage's questions are not valid ( he isn't booing by the way TobyWanKenobi !).

There have been plenty of games where Vydra has contributed zilch.

He needs players around him who are on the same wavelength, Anya certainly was when he was in the starting 11.

Vydra is our deadliest finisher and that is his one trick, yet in recent games he has spent far too much time deep in midfield. 

He is a confidence player yet seems to have a significant deficiency in recent games.

I am not sure you can build a team around him and would happily cash in.

 

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6 hours ago, sage said:

You can trace Derby's decline under McLaren MkI in part to Ince's arrival and how it changed the way we played as a team. He scored goals but everything went through him and other players suffered as did the team.

I'd put it more down to losing Buxton, Thorne, Martin, Eustace, Forsyth, Ibe and probably more that I can't remember.

Feel bad for Incey. He was brilliant for us and I don't even think we saw the best of him yet. People just always had him down as a lazy prima donna but he worked hard and clearly cared.

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5 hours ago, 86 points said:

Only issue with Vyds and it's a recent problem to boot, is his attitude. In fairness, perhaps he's just hacked off at playing with pros who aren't that fussed and seemingly take little pride in their performance?

Or fed up with watching the ball being hoofed over his head

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Strongly disagree that he does not have the skills set to link midfield to the CF and wingers. 

The problem is this is not what is expected of him currently. Due to the lack of mobility in midfield and our full backs, he's actually being tasked with linking defence and CF.

Unfortunately he's a marked man now and when he's receiving the ball on the half turn in a dangerous area he often ends up getting clattered.

Hard to question his attitude, GR stated that he is a model professional. Think he's just becoming disillusioned with us playing in a way which is not utilising him enough.

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7 hours ago, sage said:

Is Vydra a big part of the problem with the team in the same way that Ince was? (IMO).

You can trace Derby's decline under McLaren MkI in part to Ince's arrival and how it changed the way we played as a team. He scored goals but everything went through him and other players suffered as did the team.

Vydra has had an outstanding season in terms of goals. This is to a great extent down to his amazing shot to goal ratio which I think was around 80% until recently. However, no-one can score at that ratio season after season and it has papered over the cracks of how few chances we have created this season. I am not blaming Vydra. He is a second striker being asked to play on the Number 10 role, a role that Toral played in at Brum, a totally different type of player. Vydra doesn't have the skills set to link the midfield to the CF and wingers and nor does he have the ability to drop into midfield and help out Huddlestone and Ledley when they are being overrun.    

I hope that Vydra can score a few more goals between now and the end of the season so he may attract a large transfer fee to help fund team regeneration (no-one else would raise more than £2m) and enable us to have a more balanced team if we are to play the same system next season. 

Obviously this is only one of many issues with the team (LB, a DCM with pace, wingers and CF) but it is one that needs to be resolved IMO to enable us to address the other deficiencies. 

I shall retire to bed now and await the scorn in the morning.

 

I do agree with most of this, both Ince and Vydra are talented goal scorers who need the team they are in to allow them to be successful- Ince 433 Vydra - someone to see his runs and has strength and ability to get the ball to him correctly which nugent can do a bit but I am convinced Martin would have done it very successful for the past two seasons if allowed to. As we are now when a decent bid for Vydra comes in he has to be sold to cover a lot of things

when we have a line of Lawrence Vydra and wieman you simply have people who look in one direction don’t tackle and actually do shy away individual and collectively when the opposition stick one on them 

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I think the problem is having Vydra and Huddlestone in the same 11, which is a shame - as they are two of our most performant players. When you have a deep lying midfielder who is immobile, and an attacking midfielder who is really a striker - it leaves the midfield too vulnerable. We get away with it when the teams work effort and passing is good - but that hasn’t been the case this calendar year - and has resulted in us getting over run.

So replace one or both of them, or the other 9 players...

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22 minutes ago, Igorwasking said:

I think the problem is having Vydra and Huddlestone in the same 11, which is a shame - as they are two of our most performant players. When you have a deep lying midfielder who is immobile, and an attacking midfielder who is really a striker - it leaves the midfield too vulnerable. We get away with it when the teams work effort and passing is good - but that hasn’t been the case this calendar year - and has resulted in us getting over run.

So replace one or both of them, or the other 9 players...

Well said and I'm happy for Vyds to stay. I know my opinion on Hudds being over-rated is unpopular but I don't care. Vyds is a goal machine. Him and Nuge prospered goodness only knows how many Vyds And Chrissie might score if played properly. Best we stick with two DMs though aye Gary.

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Vydra is a flair player who like the ball to feet, unfortunately down to GRs style he doesn’t least fit in, utilised right he is our best player.

Mind you what do I know, I always thought Hughes was our best player and should have been foundation of our team for years to come ?

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This isn't in response to Sage's post as such but semi on topic, it got me looking into Vydra's goals this season. One of the complaints I have seen a lot this year is that without Vydra's goals we would be nothing, down the bottom of the table.

These comments make little sense as 1) We wouldn't be playing with 10 men and 2) We would have the X million in the bank that we wouldn't have spent on Vydra to buy someone else. 

Here comes the stats. Now you have to remember obviously the season isn't over yet. But below are percentage of overall goals scored the top scorer.

17/18 - Vydra 19 of 61 - 31.1%
---------------------------------
16/17 - Ince 14 of 54 - 25.9%
15/16 - Martin 15 of 66 - 22.7%
14/15 - Marin 18 of 85 - 21.1%
13/14 - Martin 22 of 84 - 26.1%

Now that percentage is a little higher than other seasons, but again worth mentioning the season isn't over yet and these stats are pretty pointless ish until the remaining games have been played.

Comparing those stats anyway with the Championship top 6 this season so far.

Assombalonga 13 of 61 - 21.3%
Adomah 14 of 67 - 20.8%
Jota 16 of 78 - 20.5%
Sessengnon 14 of 73 - 19.1%
Gregory 10 of 55 - 18.1%
Paterson 9 of 64 - 14%

Also The Premier League

Kane - 25 of 65 - 38.4%
Salah 30 of 78 - 38.4%
Aguero 21 of 93 - 22.5%
Hazard 12 of 57 - 21%
Lacazette 11 of 62 - 17.7%

I did have Harry Kane in mind if I'm honest when I started all this, a look into Spurs last 3 seasons

16/17 - 29 of 86 - 33.7%
15/16 - 25 of 69 - 36.2%
14/15 - 21 of 58 - 36.2%

Summary

We're not a Harry Kane Hotspur just yet.

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6 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Vydra has had an outstanding season and I dare say without his contribution, we’d be 17th rather than 7th and still with a good shot of finishing in the play-offs.

We would be daft to sell him because not only would we miss his goals, but we probably wouldn’t extract enough profit out of the sale to make it worth our while, and Rowett might not even invest it wisely.

For me, a player like Tom Lawrence is a much bigger part of the problem.

If you read my post I acknowledge that there are other issues, including the wingers.

However if we are to improve and get new wingers, a left back, a mobile CM and a CF we need to sell and Vydra would raise by far the most money.

 

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Ince was a myth. "He's lazy!" "He's a one trick pony". Wrong. Wrong. 

When we lost Kris Commons and brought in Ben Davies, I got it. Commons was too big and too expensive for Derby. We downgraded in ability, but we massively downgraded on wages too. 

Losing Ince and replacing him, for the same money, with Tom Lawrence has to be one of the worst bits of business we've done in a while. And that's saying something. 

We've lost a player that created goals, could score from anywhere, change the game in a heartbeat, and worked his balls off tracking back and winning challenges in his own box. We've replaced him with a player that creates very little, dives a fair bit and saunters back when we've lost possession. 

Vydra is the opposite of Lawrence in all of the above. The only problem with Vydra is he gets fed up and comes looking for the ball deep, which really doesn't suit his game. But is that down to him, or down to the fact that our midfield is appalling. 

In the last few years we've had Hughes, Hendrick and Bryson all frighting for a starting berth. What we'd give for someone of that ability and work rate now. 

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9 hours ago, sage said:

 

Not gonna requote the whole thing but I’ve been saying this for a long time and it’s the nail on the bloomin head.

Watching Wolves last week showed the differences to me, they attacked and defended as a unit and everyone knew their positions and where to be. No last ditch tackling, no busting a gut because you are out of position. People won’t like me saying it but we haven’t seen us be that unit since 13/14.

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