Selling the Crown Jewels ..

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

8 minutes ago, Ram8 said:

Good to see that there are some who agree with (most or some of) my views, and as I expected, many who disagree ..

However, whilst I can accept the validity of the view that an individual manager might  want to build a team to his own plan / in his own image, as Rowett has plainly done, that doesn’t necessarily follow that he always gets it right, or that it proves to be successful; and looking at the reasons that are coming up for Rowett’s rejection of the abilities of (for instance) Martin, Hughes and Christie, then I think there are other reasons that one might like to consider for his inability to integrate them into his tactical and personnel plans ..

Hughes and Christie, both players with flair and technical ability, I believe that he wasn’t prepared to put in the work necessary to integrate their individuality into his rigid system ..

Martin I think was too big a personality for him to integrate into the rigidity and inflexibility of his tactical philosophy, because Martin has an ego and confidence that (because of his technical ability and vision on the field, not something that can be coached in or out of a player) could challenge Rowett’s views of the ‘setting up’ of a game, or the unfolding of a game’s direction. This ‘attitude’ of Martin’s, seen by many as petulance or sulking, was actually the passion of a player who could ‘read’ a game a few pages ahead of most of his team mates, and became (justifiably) frustrated at times when some of them lost the plot ! 

McLaren used this personality trait of Martin’s, and incorporated it as an integral part of the team’s philosophy; Rowett saw it as disruptive, merely because he seems to want ‘foot soldiers / roundheads’, not ‘cavaliers’ ..

A similar situation developed when Billy Davies sold Inigo Idiakez, a player who I don’t believe would have blindly followed Davies’ instructions, so obviously flawed as they were ..

 

Incidentally, the one exception in this present team is Tom Huddlestone (and possibly George Thorne if he recovers his former glory) who plays ‘cavalier’ football, but has a personality that oozes composure, two traits that rarely occur in one player; and his contributions to the game are worth the admission money in themselves .. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Post of the day.....

Some will not like it's content but I think it's bang on the money.

[DRBee]

13 minutes ago, Ram8 said:

Good to see that there are some who agree with (most or some of) my views, and as I expected, many who disagree ..

However, whilst I can accept the validity of the view that an individual manager might  want to build a team to his own plan / in his own image, as Rowett has plainly done, that doesn’t necessarily follow that he always gets it right, or that it proves to be successful; and looking at the reasons that are coming up for Rowett’s rejection of the abilities of (for instance) Martin, Hughes and Christie, then I think there are other reasons that one might like to consider for his inability to integrate them into his tactical and personnel plans ..

Hughes and Christie, both players with flair and technical ability, I believe that he wasn’t prepared to put in the work necessary to integrate their individuality into his rigid system ..

Martin I think was too big a personality for him to integrate into the rigidity and inflexibility of his tactical philosophy, because Martin has an ego and confidence that (because of his technical ability and vision on the field, not something that can be coached in or out of a player) could challenge Rowett’s views of the ‘setting up’ of a game, or the unfolding of a game’s direction. This ‘attitude’ of Martin’s, seen by many as petulance or sulking, was actually the passion of a player who could ‘read’ a game a few pages ahead of most of his team mates, and became (justifiably) frustrated at times when some of them lost the plot ! 

McLaren used this personality trait of Martin’s, and incorporated it as an integral part of the team’s philosophy; Rowett saw it as disruptive, merely because he seems to want ‘foot soldiers / roundheads’, not ‘cavaliers’ ..

A similar situation developed when Billy Davies sold Inigo Idiakez, a player who I don’t believe would have blindly followed Davies’ instructions, so obviously flawed as they were ..

 

Incidentally, the one exception in this present team is Tom Huddlestone (and possibly George Thorne if he recovers his former glory) who plays ‘cavalier’ football, but has a personality that oozes composure, two traits that rarely occur in one player; and his contributions to the game are worth the admission money in themselves .. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The comments on Martin only have validity if you have some information that is not public. Whilst agreeing about Martin's skill etc. a much simpler explanation ( and therefore possibly more likely) is that Martin was too slow and ineffective at challenging for the ball and so limiting his contribution to the defending that Rowett wants from everyone. Last night Vydra  spent far more time trying to win the ball than getting himself into goal-scoring opportunities.

[TommyPowell]

9 hours ago, dcfctheteamforme said:

Sorry but this is nonsense. Rowett admitted himself we're too reliant on Vydra. When Once and Martin were here they both scored a decent amount of goals, as well as our other wingers and midfielders chipping in (depending on which season we're talking about). 

how many goals did martin score after returning from fulham????????????????

 

[TommyPowell]

this post is about the value of hughes -ince and martin

[TommyPowell]

14 hours ago, TobyWanKenobi said:

Because Hughes and Ince can't drag a team up themselves. They need good players and management around them, something which we were less than perfect in arranging.

so are you actually saying we havent got a good manager now??????????????????

[archied]

40 minutes ago, Ram8 said:

Good to see that there are some who agree with (most or some of) my views, and as I expected, many who disagree ..

However, whilst I can accept the validity of the view that an individual manager might  want to build a team to his own plan / in his own image, as Rowett has plainly done, that doesn’t necessarily follow that he always gets it right, or that it proves to be successful; and looking at the reasons that are coming up for Rowett’s rejection of the abilities of (for instance) Martin, Hughes and Christie, then I think there are other reasons that one might like to consider for his inability to integrate them into his tactical and personnel plans ..

Hughes and Christie, both players with flair and technical ability, I believe that he wasn’t prepared to put in the work necessary to integrate their individuality into his rigid system ..

Martin I think was too big a personality for him to integrate into the rigidity and inflexibility of his tactical philosophy, because Martin has an ego and confidence that (because of his technical ability and vision on the field, not something that can be coached in or out of a player) could challenge Rowett’s views of the ‘setting up’ of a game, or the unfolding of a game’s direction. This ‘attitude’ of Martin’s, seen by many as petulance or sulking, was actually the passion of a player who could ‘read’ a game a few pages ahead of most of his team mates, and became (justifiably) frustrated at times when some of them lost the plot ! 

McLaren used this personality trait of Martin’s, and incorporated it as an integral part of the team’s philosophy; Rowett saw it as disruptive, merely because he seems to want ‘foot soldiers / roundheads’, not ‘cavaliers’ ..

A similar situation developed when Billy Davies sold Inigo Idiakez, a player who I don’t believe would have blindly followed Davies’ instructions, so obviously flawed as they were ..

 

Incidentally, the one exception in this present team is Tom Huddlestone (and possibly George Thorne if he recovers his former glory) who plays ‘cavalier’ football, but has a personality that oozes composure, two traits that rarely occur in one player; and his contributions to the game are worth the admission money in themselves .. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We need to get rid of that workhorse Roundhead Lawrence,,, ALL teams in modern day football need player to work very hard ( yes that includes the flair players ) ,they need all players to know their role and be disciplined and they need all players to be 100% committed to the club and team ,

happy to talk football with anybody but pure rowett bashing posts with no balance are just boring ,, right or wrongly rowett shipped some players out ,there will be /are lots of factors at play that influenced the sales , to say it’s pure and simple rowett is anti flair pullis 2 is just unbalanced anti Rowett rubbish just like we only play hoof ball 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

33 minutes ago, archied said:

We need to get rid of that workhorse Roundhead Lawrence,,, ALL teams in modern day football need player to work very hard ( yes that includes the flair players ) ,they need all players to know their role and be disciplined and they need all players to be 100% committed to the club and team ,

happy to talk football with anybody but pure rowett bashing posts with no balance are just boring ,, right or wrongly rowett shipped some players out ,there will be /are lots of factors at play that influenced the sales , to say it’s pure and simple rowett is anti flair pullis 2 is just unbalanced anti Rowett rubbish just like we only play hoof ball 

Whilst it's not for me to defend another poster archied,I didn't see any rowett bashing in the post.

He merely advocates that Gary has a team based ethos that seems to emphasise a more teamwork type approach over flair players and individual skills (and strong personalities/ego).

Fair call from what I've seen....now that suits some players more than others in a rowett team.The poster hasn't mentioned rowettball.

(That's my job?)

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

1 hour ago, DRBee said:

The comments on Martin only have validity if you have some information that is not public. Whilst agreeing about Martin's skill etc. a much simpler explanation ( and therefore possibly more likely) is that Martin was too slow and ineffective at challenging for the ball and so limiting his contribution to the defending that Rowett wants from everyone. Last night Vydra  spent far more time trying to win the ball than getting himself into goal-scoring opportunities.

And it didn't do us any good did it unfortunately......vydra needs to be spending more time goal scoring than running up and down the pitch like a loon....their number 9 looked like a carthorse but was in the right place at the right time to score.....I know what I would have preferred to see vydra doing.

[archied]

3 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Whilst it's not for me to defend another poster archied,I didn't see any rowett bashing in the post.

He merely advocates that Gary has a team based ethos that deems to emphasise a more teamwork type approach over flair players and individual skills (and strong personalities/ego)

Fair call from what I've seen....now that suits some players more than others in a rowett team.The poster hasn't mentioned rowettball.

(That's my job?)

Can’t agree cash ,it’s blatantly ignoring the obvious and peddling a party line ( for some) of agricultural defensive manager that can’t handle flair or even big personality players with a view on the game and team tactics ,,, 

rowetts main signing is flair player ,,, Curtis Davies is a very big personality and very vocal and a very strong character,I fact I’m willing to bet hudds and Ledley are no shrinking violets or yes men ,,,, now you know I’m backing rowett as the best option available to us at this point and believe he has potential but I certainly don’t feel I have to back every move he makes ,he has and will make mistakes ,,, I don’t rubbish previous managers input on the basis that I think rowett is the right man at this time,

for me the post was spouting a lot of stuff that has no real basis other than what he wants the picture of rowett as a manger to fit

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

15 minutes ago, archied said:

Can’t agree cash ,it’s blatantly ignoring the obvious and peddling a party line ( for some) of agricultural defensive manager that can’t handle flair or even big personality players with a view on the game and team tactics ,,, 

rowetts main signing is flair player ,,, Curtis Davies is a very big personality and very vocal and a very strong character,I fact I’m willing to bet hudds and Ledley are no shrinking violets or yes men ,,,, now you know I’m backing rowett as the best option available to us at this point and believe he has potential but I certainly don’t feel I have to back every move he makes ,he has and will make mistakes ,,, I don’t rubbish previous managers input on the basis that I think rowett is the right man at this time,

for me the post was spouting a lot of stuff that has no real basis other than what he wants the picture of rowett as a manger to fit

Perhaps he is,that's for him to say.

I do wonder though if Gary does struggle with dealing with some players or rather,perhaps 'overmanages'them, when they have a lot of natural flair....Russell,Martin,Lawrence and now Nugent seem to struggle after time under him.

On the other side of the coin,vydra has largely flourished (apart from the last few games)and our defenders seem better to a man.

I wonder if he is more in tune with a steadfast defender,rather than with the more free wheeling fighter pilot type ego, of an attacker?

 

[archied]

6 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Perhaps he is,that's for him to say.

I do wonder though if Gary does struggle with dealing with some players or rather,perhaps 'overmanages'them, when they have a lot of natural flair....Russell,Martin,Lawrence and now Nugent seem to struggle after time under him.

On the other side of the coin,vydra has largely flourished (apart from the last few games)and our defenders seem better to a man.

I wonder if he is more in tune with a steadfast defender,rather than with the more free wheeling fighter pilot type ego, of an attacker?

 

Only time will tell I suppose , my main gripe with the original post was more about rowett being a manager who wants to build teams devoid of flair ( all Roundheads ) which I think is totally unfair evaluation of him so far at derby ,,, even early on when we were not great he was making the right noises and to my eye I’ve seen us trying to play some decent fast paced incisive stuff on the ground

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

7 minutes ago, archied said:

Only time will tell I suppose , my main gripe with the original post was more about rowett being a manager who wants to build teams devoid of flair ( all Roundheads ) which I think is totally unfair evaluation of him so far at derby ,,, even early on when we were not great he was making the right noises and to my eye I’ve seen us trying to play some decent fast paced incisive stuff on the ground

It's improved to my mind and I enjoyed yesterday's match more than any other rowett match at pp...it was extremely entertaining if slightly chaotic.....if a neutral watched it,they would have loved it!

[jagerbob]

Just because the team overall has taken to his idea of defending more effectively than it has his idea of utilising a direct ball, off the ball running, utilisation of space etc, doesnt mean that GR is negative.

Thats just the way it goes sometimes when you are trying to play a balanced style.

Not only is GRs style more likely to win games or avoid defeat consistantly, it represents strength in all forms of the game, and as sich gives you more different ways of winning a game. McClaren I would get youi in the top 2, once in every 10 seasons attempted in my opinion.

Its sheer arrogance to think you can outscore every opponent by denying them the ball, whilst having no physical presence to defend a set piece, or attack one.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

19 minutes ago, jagerbob said:

Just because the team overall has taken to his idea of defending more effectively than it has his idea of utilising a direct ball, off the ball running, utilisation of space etc, doesnt mean that GR is negative.

Thats just the way it goes sometimes when you are trying to play a balanced style.

Not only is GRs style more likely to win games or avoid defeat consistantly, it represents strength in all forms of the game, and as sich gives you more different ways of winning a game. McClaren I would get youi in the top 2, once in every 10 seasons attempted in my opinion.

Its sheer arrogance to think you can outscore every opponent by denying them the ball, whilst having no physical presence to defend a set piece, or attack one.

He's the manager tho Bob,it's his job to adapt the team to his ideas and vice versa....if you can balance it out as well,all to the good.

Every manager gets the same amount of time to do this per season.

As far as I can see we currently only have one way of winning a game (vydra) so I'm not sure what our different ways of winning a game is as we have sold or loaned out our crown Jewels (to get back on topic) which limits our options.

Not saying Gary's doing a bad job at all,it's remarkable that we are where we are,but we are in a rut because we can't find another way to win.

[TobyWanKenobi]

8 hours ago, TommyPowel said:

so are you actually saying we havent got a good manager now??????????????????

No, I was saying we have has poor managers previously. The jury is still out for Gary until he's had a full season in charge at least.

A single question mark will suffice for questions.

[archied]

11 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

He's the manager tho Bob,it's his job to adapt the team to his ideas and vice versa....if you can balance it out as well,all to the good.

Every manager gets the same amount of time to do this per season.

As far as I can see we currently only have one way of winning a game (vydra) so I'm not sure what our different ways of winning a game is as we have sold or loaned out our crown Jewels (to get back on topic) which limits our options.

Not saying Gary's doing a bad job at all,it's remarkable that we are where we are,but we are in a rut because we can't find another way to win.

I think at this point you are right ,, we in the main only have one way to win and that is through quality,form and consistency of others not being up to vydras standards ,,,, 

now imagine we have vyds firing on all cylinders we have that number ten ripping teams through the middle ,,, then add a Jerome type striker ( is Jerome enough quality?) who has pace ,power ,a goal or two in him and can head a ball to knock long if needed ,then add two quality wingers who can beat a man wide and cross a ball but have a goal in the two ,suddenly we have lots of options and variety in terms of attack ,all that is achievable without the need to change the defence and have them going gung ho thus losing that solid thing we have now ,, that’s a team that could get you up ,

my hope is that that is what rowett is looking to create and that he is able to spot a player and coach them right to the quality needed ,, it’s still his first full season with only two window s under his charge which he is wheeling and dealing in ,, which if I’m honest I kind of like , yes it’s nice splashing big bucks without a care but there is an honesty with the rowett / clough model ( no pop at Mac intended ) that for me draws me in and invests me in the club and manager more ( I’m an old school fan of over 50 years watching us), I do think some fans are missing this ingredient that rowetts reign is bringing and I think without realising they are missing out a bit on what’s going on ,, 

im trying to lose that expectation that I had bought into like a lot of us and get back to the enjoyment of watching a young prospect manager build us a team of players that can get us up on a reasonable budget not **** or bust ,whilst knowing we have an owner spending in the background on making the club healthy in terms of infrastructure and finances , hence I do respond to the total negative posts at times that just diss rowett and Mel and take no balanced view

if that takes us back down to 27000 hardcore fans in pride park roaring us on I will live with that too

 

[rynny]

1 hour ago, archied said:

I think at this point you are right ,, we in the main only have one way to win and that is through quality,form and consistency of others not being up to vydras standards ,,,, 

now imagine we have vyds firing on all cylinders we have that number ten ripping teams through the middle ,,, then add a Jerome type striker ( is Jerome enough quality?) who has pace ,power ,a goal or two in him and can head a ball to knock long if needed ,then add two quality wingers who can beat a man wide and cross a ball but have a goal in the two ,suddenly we have lots of options and variety in terms of attack ,all that is achievable without the need to change the defence and have them going gung ho thus losing that solid thing we have now ,, that’s a team that could get you up ,

my hope is that that is what rowett is looking to create and that he is able to spot a player and coach them right to the quality needed ,, it’s still his first full season with only two window s under his charge which he is wheeling and dealing in ,, which if I’m honest I kind of like , yes it’s nice splashing big bucks without a care but there is an honesty with the rowett / clough model ( no pop at Mac intended ) that for me draws me in and invests me in the club and manager more ( I’m an old school fan of over 50 years watching us), I do think some fans are missing this ingredient that rowetts reign is bringing and I think without realising they are missing out a bit on what’s going on ,, 

im trying to lose that expectation that I had bought into like a lot of us and get back to the enjoyment of watching a young prospect manager build us a team of players that can get us up on a reasonable budget not **** or bust ,whilst knowing we have an owner spending in the background on making the club healthy in terms of infrastructure and finances , hence I do respond to the total negative posts at times that just diss rowett and Mel and take no balanced view

if that takes us back down to 27000 hardcore fans in pride park roaring us on I will live with that too

 

I personally think that it could never be a pop at Mac, he did not spend that much in the transfer windows he had. From memory he only brought in 2 players that cost over £1m over both spells, Thorne and Nugent. All the rest were in the hundred thousands, again from memory, Dawkins £650k, Shotton £750k, Christie £500k, Albentosa £600k, Warnock £250k. All his permanent signings cost about the same as Vydra.

[Sparkle]

1 hour ago, rynny said:

I personally think that it could never be a pop at Mac, he did not spend that much in the transfer windows he had. From memory he only brought in 2 players that cost over £1m over both spells, Thorne and Nugent. All the rest were in the hundred thousands, again from memory, Dawkins £650k, Shotton £750k, Christie £500k, Albentosa £600k, Warnock £250k. All his permanent signings cost about the same as Vydra.

That’s very true and looking at his career we probably got away with it as he has usually done much worse

[Spanish]

16 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Perhaps he is,that's for him to say.

I do wonder though if Gary does struggle with dealing with some players or rather,perhaps 'overmanages'them, when they have a lot of natural flair....Russell,Martin,Lawrence and now Nugent seem to struggle after time under him.

On the other side of the coin,vydra has largely flourished (apart from the last few games)and our defenders seem better to a man.

I wonder if he is more in tune with a steadfast defender,rather than with the more free wheeling fighter pilot type ego, of an attacker?

 

that's a bit harsh

 

Russell was playing his best football in some time when he left, Martin hasn't been on it for a lot longer than GR's time, Tom was starting to look dangerous before his injury.  Nuge well there is a worry but not certain it can be laid at GR's feet.  Wieman playing better and as you say Vyds is on fire.  Not much proof here of this being a failing of GR

[Ram8]

TommyPowel said .. how many goals did Martin score  after returning  from Fulham ???????????????

Answer, not many, but as Rowett plainly didn’t have him in his future plans, and didn’t give him regular game time, or set the team up to play to his strengths, there was no way anyone could have scored goals in that situation .. he was basically frozen out from the outset by Rowett. 

And as for him being “too slow and too lazy”, this was levelled against Huddlestone too when he first returned, but players with such a natural ability to ‘read’ and anticipate a game to their level don’t need speed and pace, they are ahead of the game in their head .. and anyone who can’t see this for themselves needs to seriously question their understanding of the game ..