ariotofmyown Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Here's a thoughtful piece by Liam Rosenior as a counter balance to some of the outrage... https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/dec/07/bame-coaches-fotball-rooney-rule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffLuff Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Listening to 5 live yesterday there was a discussion on the white working classes being forgotten, essentially because they can’t afford university, lack of role models etc. It moved on to the big problem being that the working classes don’t see themselves represented as politicians or on tv so they begin to believe any dream is unattainable. I think it’s an interesting point and if you apply a similar logic to this topic then I’m not sure why it’s so controversial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 You find, generally that all that happens is shortlists for interviews grow by 1 so all the white people who would be interviewed will still be. Therefore, if there isn't a racist culture preventing minority coaches from getting interviews (which there was in the NFL, where the Rooney rule comes from) then literally nothing will change and no-one needs to worry. But the argument of "if you're good enough you'll get the job regardless" doesn't work unless you have a deep understanding of how the industry is currently run and know that that is the case. For example, to bring it back to the NFL - many black coaches including Mike Tomlin, head coach of the Steelers (and a very good one) have talked about how they wouldn't have gotten opportunities in coaching at all without the Rooney Rule. The real success of the Rooney rule in the NFL was that black coaches (who were good enough) got on the coaching ladder (when they otherwise would not, because racists would prefer a worse non-black option). The requirement to interview minority coaches for the head coach role meant that the barriers preventing minorities from becoming lesser coaches in the first place almost entirely collapsed, because teams needed more choice. More coaches means a higher number of good coaches and the argument of "if you're good enough you'll get the job" comes into effect. But the problem was they couldn't even get there. And if there is a problem with racism in the FA then the problem here will be black coaches not getting opportunities further down the ladder. What *should* happen is you start seeing more minority coaches in coaching teams, then some will rise up to success at a managerial level. It's not like all of a sudden every England manager from here on out is going to be the black managers you've heard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 What I dont understand with this sort of approach is that you actually cant ask what colour someones skin is or what background they come from on a job application. Now I know some names will make it evident, But if Joe Bloggs applies for a job how do I know what colour he is? Ok, so for high profile jobs its obvious as the people will be known, but the England set up must be huge and surely jobs will be advertised where coaches and physios etc will be from all walks of life and not public figures? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 28 minutes ago, SaintRam said: It's not like all of a sudden every England manager from here on out is going to be the black managers you've heard of. But here is the thing, I don't know anyone who would give a flying fook if every manager in the league was black, as long as they were there on merit rather than on their skin colour. I often see 'the number of BAME managers is disproportionate to number of BAME players' but is that really relevant? Surely the relevant figure is the number of BAME managers as a percentage of BAME players available for employment as a manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: But here is the thing, I don't know anyone who would give a flying fook if every manager in the league was black, as long as they were there on merit rather than on their skin colour. I often see 'the number of BAME managers is disproportionate to number of BAME players' but is that really relevant? Surely the relevant figure is the number of BAME managers as a percentage of BAME players available for employment as a manager. Aye, of course. That's a false statistic. All I'm saying is the success of the Rooney Rule is that it helped break down the barriers preventing qualified minority coaches from getting on the coaching ladder at all. Now I, like I imagine everyone here is, am completely ignorant of the inner workings of the FA at any level. But my observations are that the number of minority coaches (not just head coaches/managers) seems low. Now that's either because fewer minorities than average are trying to become coaches, they're all bizarrely struck by some incompetency that makes none of them good enough or they have more obstacles in their path to becoming coaches due, in probability, to racism. If it's issue A, nothing will change. If it's issue B, they shouldn't get through the interview stage. If it's issue C, then the competent ones now getting interviews will get jobs and as such the overall quality of coaching within the FA will improve as a pool of untapped coaches will enter the fold. I don't really see where the fuss is. The only white man who's going to miss out on a job due to this rule is one who goes up against a better minority coach (who otherwise would not have been interviewed) - which is what everyone is saying should be the case anyway. Just for clarity, none of that other than the first line was aimed at you specifically @G STAR RAM - I just wanted to further clarify my own point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 17 minutes ago, SaintRam said: Aye, of course. That's a false statistic. All I'm saying is the success of the Rooney Rule is that it helped break down the barriers preventing qualified minority coaches from getting on the coaching ladder at all. Now I, like I imagine everyone here is, am completely ignorant of the inner workings of the FA at any level. But my observations are that the number of minority coaches (not just head coaches/managers) seems low. Now that's either because fewer minorities than average are trying to become coaches, they're all bizarrely struck by some incompetency that makes none of them good enough or they have more obstacles in their path to becoming coaches due, in probability, to racism. If it's issue A, nothing will change. If it's issue B, they shouldn't get through the interview stage. If it's issue C, then the competent ones now getting interviews will get jobs and as such the overall quality of coaching within the FA will improve as a pool of untapped coaches will enter the fold. I don't really see where the fuss is. The only white man who's going to miss out on a job due to this rule is one who goes up against a better minority coach (who otherwise would not have been interviewed) - which is what everyone is saying should be the case anyway. Just for clarity, none of that other than the first line was aimed at you specifically @G STAR RAM - I just wanted to further clarify my own point of view. I don't really know why it winds me up so much. I think it's more to do with these campaigns being aimed at football more than the racism issue itself. Where are these campaigns in darts, snooker and swimming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 17 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: I don't really know why it winds me up so much. I think it's more to do with these campaigns being aimed at football more than the racism issue itself. Where are these campaigns in darts, snooker and swimming? I think that's a valid concern. It's likely relative to the popularity of the sport. As such, the movement should start in Snooker in a couple hundred years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 hour ago, SaintRam said: You find, generally that all that happens is shortlists for interviews grow by 1 so all the white people who would be interviewed will still be...... And that's where the stupidity comes in - interview an extra person just because of their skin colour/race. The applicant that ends up getting interviewed will therefore be suspicious/certain he (or she (eventually!)) is only on the list because they help meet a quota - thereby reinforcing racism rather than helping overcome it - perhaps when they attend the FA panel they should wear a hat with 'Token Interviewee' on it! What if Chris Houghton is on the list next time? Will he think he's got a genuine chance or is he just there to make up the numbers? And if he got the job, what does that say to the other candidates? Sorry guys, about time we had a black coach, so even if you have better credentials, you're not getting it this time? I accept that when owners are gambling with the future success of their clubs, racial discrimination probably plays a part in some appointments, but more often than not, they are simply picking the person that they hope will bring them success . If not a big enough percentage of BAME players go on to be coaches, it's likely to be because not enough want to be coaches rather than racism 'blocking' them. More BAME coaches will lead to more BAME managers and that will increase the number of BAME candidates for the top jobs - and that's where the FA should be focusing their efforts - encourage the BAME players to get their badges and start off in the lower leagues rather than feeling entitled to a PL coaching role because of the colour of your skin.... Artificial manipulation helps no one in the long run but just creates greater division..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 minute ago, Gaspode said: And that's where the stupidity comes in - interview an extra person just because of their skin colour/race. The applicant that ends up getting interviewed will therefore be suspicious/certain he (or she (eventually!)) is only on the list because they help meet a quota - thereby reinforcing racism rather than helping overcome it - perhaps when they attend the FA panel they should wear a hat with 'Token Interviewee' on it! What if Chris Houghton is on the list next time? Will he think he's got a genuine chance or is he just there to make up the numbers? And if he got the job, what does that say to the other candidates? Sorry guys, about time we had a black coach, so even if you have better credentials, you're not getting it this time? I accept that when owners are gambling with the future success of their clubs, racial discrimination probably plays a part in some appointments, but more often than not, they are simply picking the person that they hope will bring them success . If not a big enough percentage of BAME players go on to be coaches, it's likely to be because not enough want to be coaches rather than racism 'blocking' them. More BAME coaches will lead to more BAME managers and that will increase the number of BAME candidates for the top jobs - and that's where the FA should be focusing their efforts - encourage the BAME players to get their badges and start off in the lower leagues rather than feeling entitled to a PL coaching role because of the colour of your skin.... Artificial manipulation helps no one in the long run but just creates greater division..... That's exactly how the 'artificial manipulation' helped in the long run in the NFL though. More BAME players were encouraged and able to get into coaching in the first place. That's what my post explained. It's been implemented once in a sporting context and has been a success, unless there are lots of better ideas to be tabled I don't see why the FA should be shot down for giving it a go. It's all well and good saying "encourage them to get their badges" but the claims some of them are making is that once they have their badges they don't get interviews, and you can't "encourage" your way past that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 If ever anybody needed proof that introducing the Rooney rule is a good thing, the Daily Mail think that it is '...a disaster for our top clubs'. Q.E.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Gnarly Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 12 hours ago, Alpha said: really really hate anti racist stuff when it's always where it's not needed making race an issue The fact they look so hard into race. I think it's them that have the problem. I mean I don't see Gary Rowett or Gareth Southgate as white. I just see them as two blokes. I don't see Chris Houghton and think "now there's a fine representative of the black race." I just see a bloke. But anti racists see race. They see the skin colour. Because race is important to them. So they share something in common with racists. So they're all scum. What they need to do is name some racist chairman. Obviously they won't. 'Anyway thanks for your time Mr Allardyce. Can you send the token black guy in now that we all know isn't going to get the job. Let's show how not racist we are.' **** off and die! Right now Stoke would hire an Isis suicide bomber if it could save them from the millions relegation could cost them. Finally found Pearson on this forum!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: I don't really know why it winds me up so much. Ooh! ooh! Miss! Me Miss!! I know! Is it because you are a snowflake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Gnarly Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, StivePesley said: Ooh! ooh! Miss! Me Miss!! I know! Is it because you are a snowflake? Oh goodness - every time you turn up on these sorts of threads arguments happen like a full on race war... Be careful users Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 12 hours ago, Lambchop said: What an ignorant comment. Racism is still structurally endemic at all levels of our society. If you don’t see that it’s because it doesn’t affect you personally and you haven’t made the effort to be aware of the problem. You also find homophobia, xenophobia, anti-Semitism, chauvinism etc etc at every level of society. What do we do? Racism must exist in my "level of society". Yet i manage to never see it. Even mixing with black lads, Muslim lads, Sikh lads, African, Brits, Turks. No racism in my world. I think that may partly be because nobody in my world ever assumes that the reason they aren't served at a bar, given a job, the shop checkout closes etc etc is because of their skin colour. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist. I just don't think it's anywhere near as rife as made out. Haven't H&M been racist this week? You don't solve racism by being anti racist. You solve it by seeing people as people. Who spotted the lack of black managers? I'd never spot that. I don't even know how many black players Derby have. Because skin colour is nothing to me. But it clearly is to the anti racist knob who wants to say there's racism in the FA but hasn't gone on to name names. Who selected the shortlist for the last 5 England managers. Which racist was it? Let's have them names. Race is an issue to anti racists. As it is to racists. Both scum to me. Both see skin colour when they look at people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 hour ago, SaintRam said: ....It's all well and good saying "encourage them to get their badges" but the claims some of them are making is that once they have their badges they don't get interviews, and you can't "encourage" your way past that. But how many are willing to start at the bottom and work their way up? How many will do a Nigel or a Gary and start off in non-league? How many (and I include players of all races in this) expect to simply walk into a top job because they've been a good player? The opportunities are there in the football pyramid if people are willing to give it a go - I'm far from convinced that those who cry the loudest that they are being stopped from coaching by racist attitudes are actually willing to lower themselves to work at a club where they might have to get their hands dirty.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 43 minutes ago, StivePesley said: Ooh! ooh! Miss! Me Miss!! I know! Is it because you are a snowflake? Is snowflake an acceptable term for a white person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 29 minutes ago, Alpha said: You also find homophobia, xenophobia, anti-Semitism, chauvinism etc etc at every level of society. What do we do? Racism must exist in my "level of society". Yet i manage to never see it. Even mixing with black lads, Muslim lads, Sikh lads, African, Brits, Turks. No racism in my world. I think that may partly be because nobody in my world ever assumes that the reason they aren't served at a bar, given a job, the shop checkout closes etc etc is because of their skin colour. I'm not saying racism doesn't exist. I just don't think it's anywhere near as rife as made out. Haven't H&M been racist this week? You don't solve racism by being anti racist. You solve it by seeing people as people. Who spotted the lack of black managers? I'd never spot that. I don't even know how many black players Derby have. Because skin colour is nothing to me. But it clearly is to the anti racist knob who wants to say there's racism in the FA but hasn't gone on to name names. Who selected the shortlist for the last 5 England managers. Which racist was it? Let's have them names. Race is an issue to anti racists. As it is to racists. Both scum to me. Both see skin colour when they look at people. The even sadder thing is that some of these people also probably don't see skin colour, they just see how they can make money out of other people's skin colour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 57 minutes ago, Mr Giggles said: Oh goodness - every time you turn up on these sorts of threads arguments happen like a full on race war... Be careful users Trust me - I'm keeping out of it. I was just trying to lighten the mood People can probably guess my thoughts on the matter. Me and @StringerBell have done this one to death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 13 hours ago, Lambchop said: What an ignorant comment. Racism is still structurally endemic at all levels of our society. If you don’t see that it’s because it doesn’t affect you personally and you haven’t made the effort to be aware of the problem. Yeah. No. I mean that he said “**** off and die!” yet you think that true thing he said is the ignorant comment ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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