Bris Vegas Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, Andicis said: ''PGMOL said Moss was right to give the spot-kick - which was missed - and was correct in recognising that Kane was not offside because Liverpool defender Dejan Lovren had deliberately played the ball in the run-up to the incident.'' "Jon Moss was in a good position to see that a Liverpool player deliberately played the ball before it fell to Harry Kane in the penalty area. He then correctly judged that Kane was fouled by Loris Karius," the statement said.'' I think it's correct. If the opposition player intentionally plays a ball that ends up going to an offside player in the other team, then it's onside. Clearly, Lovren intended to kick that ball, therefore onside and the correct decision. But that doesn't make a lot of sense. Kane was offside when the ball was played, and Lovren wasn't in possession of the ball. He wasn't to know Kane was offside, so natural instinct would be to stop the through-ball. I'm sure there are numerous examples of players being called offside following a pass to them which has been deflected into their path. Defelcted by a defender trying to play the ball, most likely by trying to block it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Paul71 said: Clearly there is confusion as Mark Clattenburg says the opposite 'As to the first, while there was contact on the ball by Dejan Lovren as it was played to Kane, Clattenburg noted allowing a player in an offside position to collect a ball when it’s played intentionally by a defender—as with a back pass—is different to it being touched in an attempt to stop it being played to an offside player. Kane was offside. Lovren brushed the ball as he stretched to try to stop it being played to Kane by a Tottenham attacker. His decision was influenced by the player standing offside. Whether Lovren touched it is immaterial—just that he didn’t play it deliberately in the direction of Kane. It was an offside play.' I think it's certainly a controversial one, I think I'd back the PGMOL over Clattenburg here, for sure. I read an article with Graham Poll also claiming the officials got it spot on. So I don't think it's an easy answer, the arguments that I have seen is intent to play the ball, he intended to boot the ball clear, so therefore it should be allowed. Surely, the biggest issue here is the fact they don't flag till the last minute? If they flagged an offside immediately, then Lovren sees it, and the issue is averted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Bris Vegas said: But that doesn't make a lot of sense. Kane was offside when the ball was played, and Lovren wasn't in possession of the ball. He wasn't to know Kane was offside, so natural instinct would be to stop the through-ball. I'm sure there are numerous examples of players being called offside following a pass to them which has been deflected into their path. Defelcted by a defender trying to play the ball, most likely by trying to block it. But if that doesn't make sense, why does the main officiating body, many ex refs and a lot of the pundits agree that it was the correct call? I don't know all the nuances off the offside rule, but I'd imagine they should. It wasn't deflected, though. It was certainly played by Lovren, it didn't just bounce off him, he knew what he was doing when he went to play the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 16 minutes ago, Paul71 said: I don't think that's correct. I think what you describe would only be correct if Kane drifted 'offside' between the ball being played and Lovren touching it. So as Kane was offside at the time the ball was played by his team mate, he is clearly interfering with play so should be ruled offside. The offence is at the time the original ball was played by spurs NOT when Kane receives it. Maybe @Mafiabob can shed some light on it? @Andicis is correct..... boy it was a tricky one, I would have made a mistake and flagged..... the conversation was pretty good to hear between Jon Moss and the lino...... Jon just went with his initial decision, no flag ever went up..... If someone is to blame it’s Lovren for being a donkey..... but that won’t happen. Officials we’re pretty brilliant that last 10-15 minutes. Glad a lino took the decision from the better angle to give the 2nd one. Problem is idiots like Klopp after the game in interviews will be lapped up. Hides the fact his team was outplayed in the 2nd half at Home..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 7 minutes ago, Andicis said: But if that doesn't make sense, why does the main officiating body, many ex refs and a lot of the pundits agree that it was the correct call? I don't know all the nuances off the offside rule, but I'd imagine they should. It wasn't deflected, though. It was certainly played by Lovren, it didn't just bounce off him, he knew what he was doing when he went to play the ball. Yeah but he was trying to play the ball to prevent the ball from reaching Kane who was in an offside position from the pass. He wasn't in possession of the ball like say Dier was when he gifted Salah the opening goal. Dele Alli passed the ball towards Kane who was standing in an offside position. Lovrenactually stretches for it and ends up on his backside. You don't end up on your backside if you're in possession of the ball. And look at Kane in the incident. He's opening his body up, waiting to receive the ball. When you know you're offside, you just let it run. It wasn't quick anticipation on his part, he was playing Dele Alli's through ball as if he wasn't offside. Also the main officiating body will 99% of the time back the refs, even when they're wrong. In this case I could be wrong, for me it was offside but I do understand the flip arguement too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, Andicis said: But if that doesn't make sense, why does the main officiating body, many ex refs and a lot of the pundits agree that it was the correct call? I don't know all the nuances off the offside rule, but I'd imagine they should. It wasn't deflected, though. It was certainly played by Lovren, it didn't just bounce off him, he knew what he was doing when he went to play the ball. I agree with @Bris Vegas . obviously not an expert but surely the offence has been committed as soon as the ball is played. So if say a ball is played into the box, the attacking player is offside and the defender knowing he is there heads it to clear it but it goes to the attacker, its offside regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Bris Vegas said: Yeah but he was trying to play the ball to prevent the ball from reaching Kane who was in an offside position from the pass. He wasn't in possession of the ball like say Dier was when he gifted Salah the opening goal. Dele Alli passed the ball towards Kane who was standing in an offside position. Lovrenactually stretches for it and ends up on his backside. You don't end up on your backside if you're in possession of the ball. And look at Kane in the incident. He's opening his body up, waiting to receive the ball. When you know you're offside, you just let it run. It wasn't quick anticipation on his part, he was playing Dele Alli's through ball as if he wasn't offside. But didn't they change the rule about flagging until the person touched it? He wasn't in possession off the ball, but had Lovren had a slightly different contact he would have booted the ball away, which was his intention. I'm not sure it's about if you're in possession, or in control, I think it's an issue of intent. I think he intended to play the ball clear, therefore it's fair game and onside. A very tight one though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, Andicis said: But didn't they change the rule about flagging until the person touched it? He wasn't in possession off the ball, but had Lovren had a slightly different contact he would have booted the ball away, which was his intention. I'm not sure it's about if you're in possession, or in control, I think it's an issue of intent. I think he intended to play the ball clear, therefore it's fair game and onside. A very tight one though. But surely Lovren goes for the ball to prevent it from reaching Kane, who was in an offside position from the original pass. Take Kane out of the equation and Lovren just allows that ball to roll through to the GK unharmed. They flag offside for players interfering with play. Surely Kane was interfering with play here, with his presence making Lovren go for the ball? It's not like he was just innocous. Dele Alli's pass was intended for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 8 minutes ago, Mafiabob said: @Andicis is correct..... boy it was a tricky one, I would have made a mistake and flagged..... the conversation was pretty good to hear between Jon Moss and the lino...... Jon just went with his initial decision, no flag ever went up..... If someone is to blame it’s Lovren for being a donkey..... but that won’t happen. Officials we’re pretty brilliant that last 10-15 minutes. Glad a lino took the decision from the better angle to give the 2nd one. Problem is idiots like Klopp after the game in interviews will be lapped up. Hides the fact his team was outplayed in the 2nd half at Home..... It seems open to interpretation. On the fa website. http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-11---offside It states the offence has been commited at the time the ball is played if the attacker is interfering with play. Surely this offence occurs before like lovren touches it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Bris Vegas said: But surely Lovren goes for the ball to prevent it from reaching Kane, who was in an offside position from the original pass. Take Kane out of the equation and Lovren just allows that ball to roll through to the GK unharmed. I agree with that, but is that enough to constitute an offside flag? I'm not sure about that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Andicis said: I agree with that, but is that enough to constitute an offside flag? I'm not sure about that one. You replied too quickly for my edit: They flag offside for players interfering with play. Surely Kane was interfering with play here, with his presence making Lovren go for the ball? It's not like he was just innocous. Dele Alli's pass was intended for him and Kane was on his heels waiting to receive the ball. Don't get me wrong, Lovren was a donkey and Klopp's moaning are excuses for his side being totally outplayed 2nd half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said: You replied too quickly for my edit: They flag offside for players interfering with play. Surely Kane was interfering with play here, with his presence making Lovren go for the ball? It's not like he was just innocous. Dele Alli's pass was intended for him and Kane was on his heels waiting to receive the ball. Don't get me wrong, Lovren was a donkey and Klopp's moaning are excuses for his side being totally outplayed 2nd half. I agree with what you say. I can however see how a ref could interpret the rule either way. Personally think anyone in the penalty area should be considered interfering with play regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said: You replied too quickly for my edit: They flag offside for players interfering with play. Surely Kane was interfering with play here, with his presence making Lovren go for the ball? It's not like he was just innocous. Dele Alli's pass was intended for him and Kane was on his heels waiting to receive the ball. Don't get me wrong, Lovren was a donkey and Klopp's moaning are excuses for his side being totally outplayed 2nd half. Is it interfering with play just by standing there though? It's not like he was in the way of Lovren, Lovren had a clear sight of the ball and a clear opportunity to clear, I interpret interfering with play as something like blocking a keepers vision, not just standing behind someone, so the way I would see it is that he wasn't interfering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 40 minutes ago, Paul71 said: I thought van dykes was worse. Alli didnt actually appeal from what I could see. But I wont disagree he has form. I think he didn't appeal because by the time he hit the ground he probably realized how ridiculous it looked, although that's just a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 13 minutes ago, Paul71 said: It seems open to interpretation. On the fa website. http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-11---offside It states the offence has been commited at the time the ball is played if the attacker is interfering with play. Surely this offence occurs before like lovren touches it? But it’s all about lovren...... Kane ain’t interfering with him kicking the ball away..... that’s how it’s been interpreted. He didn’t interfere with that phase of play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 8 minutes ago, Andicis said: Is it interfering with play just by standing there though? It's not like he was in the way of Lovren, Lovren had a clear sight of the ball and a clear opportunity to clear, I interpret interfering with play as something like blocking a keepers vision, not just standing behind someone, so the way I would see it is that he wasn't interfering. It's a good question. I honestly think that Lovren attempted to play the ball because he knew Kane was behind him, and he didn't know he was offside. If he knew he was offside, it would have been a ballsy move to just let it run back to the GK. I also think that if Kane wasn't standing there, Lovren, being a PL level defender, would have recognised the situation and just allowed the ball to roll back to the GK unharmed. Therefore, IMO, Kane's presence made Lovren go for the ball, therefore Kane was interfering with play whether he initially challenged for the ball or not. Kane was definitely ready to receive Dele Alli's pass, it wasn't like he was facing his own goal walking backwards from an offside position with his hands in the air saying 'I'm not interfering with play' like all the forwards do these days, he was anticipating the through-ball reaching him. I could be wrong. I just feel considering the action Kane was offside and if that had happened against Derby I'd be fuming. On the flip side if Derby had won the penalty I'd be claiming that Lovren was a donkey and the penalty should stand. As a 100% neutral, I'm leaning towards it was offside but that's just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, Highgate said: I think he didn't appeal because by the time he hit the ground he probably realized how ridiculous it looked, although that's just a guess. Maybe yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 minute ago, Mafiabob said: But it’s all about lovren...... Kane ain’t interfering with him kicking the ball away..... that’s how it’s been interpreted. He didn’t interfere with that phase of play. Yeah, I get what bris is saying that if Kane isn't there lovren doesn't need to make the clearance. If ex refs can't agree then I've got no chance of understanding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Just now, Paul71 said: Yeah, I get what bris is saying that if Kane isn't there lovren doesn't need to make the clearance. If ex refs can't agree then I've got no chance of understanding it. It’s a hard one, what infuriates is Klopps reaction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Shall we start on the second penalty yet or leave that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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