Nigel Clough Sacking

[ramblur]

14 hours ago, CumbrianRam said:

NC was sacked because results were stagnating and gates were close to 20k simple as.

Opening league gates in 12/13 were 21,188,23,437,23,514 and 21,465

[archied]

There's a lot of unfair stick given to Nigel clough by some of our fans ,,, he far from being a clown and perhaps that is the sticking point for him ,, he can be very dour and perhaps that failure to excite fans and players stops him really lifting off to the next level but as I say he is a very solid manager and he did a very solid job for us at a time of need and I for one think that he deserves some respect for that , 

I've got to say he is one manager that I would be very interested to see given a decent budget somewhere just to see how he gets on ,

was Sam right to sack him? Was he close to lift off with the team he had put together at Derby? Would he have got us promoted with more time?,,,,,,,, all of us can only speculate and give opinions one way or the other but I do know he is no mug as a manager and doesn't deserve to be called a clown or failure for his time at Derby county?

[ramblur]

2 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

I wasn't paying close attention to Derby in any of the Smith/Davies/Burley years, fair play to them for getting things done quickly.

McClaren - (did it in half a season by the way) did it with someone else's team/squad.

What was the starting position for both managers? What state was the morale/squad of the club in when NC took over v's when Steve took over?

How long did McClaren have to spend clearing up NC's mess, cutting his wage bill or trying to shift deadwood on high wages?

How much did McClaren have to cut the wage bill by? How much did McClaren have to worry about balancing the books in's v outs?

I try to stay out of these arguments because nothing that is said changes anyone's opinion,and the same things are said time and again.However,if I can supply facts I will,and something new came up in the build up to the Burton home game.Nigel said that he had cut an opening players' wage bill of £16m (which I'm pretty sure is ex ENIC) by 50%.Later in the interview he said it was actually nearer 60%.Now a 55% (which isn't nearer 60%) cut gives you a 12/13 bill of £7.2m,which would become £8.1m inc ENIC. Now I'd long thought that wages of non playing staff were coming in at something between £3-£4m (inc ENIC),with a tendency to be more towards the £4m. The actual figure in the accounts (inc ENIC) was (overall) £12.059m,thus indicating to me that Nigel was probably telling the truth.

A 12/13 league table of overall wages had us lower mid table,but there was only just over £1m separating us from 3rd bottom.Given,due to the size of our club and its commercial operations,compared to others below us, our non playing staff wages would be a lot higher than those below us,we could quite easily have been 3rd bottom in a playing staff only table.Of those below us in the overall table,I'd imagine that only Sheff Weds could come anywhere near to matching our non playing staff wages.

In conclusion,Nigel had steadily improved our league standing,whilst incrementally cutting our players' wage bill. As this,in general, gives the closest correlation to league position,he quite clearly bucked the trend fairly significantly.

I did notice that a while back Sam Rush stated that he hadn't appreciated the restrictions under which Nigel had been working,at the time of his sacking. I hope his diligence was better in commercial matters such as the iPro deal (or maybe not). 

 

[Red Ram]

3 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

I wasn't paying close attention to Derby in any of the Smith/Davies/Burley years, fair play to them for getting things done quickly.

McClaren - (did it in half a season by the way) did it with someone else's team/squad.

What was the starting position for both managers? What state was the morale/squad of the club in when NC took over v's when Steve took over?

How long did McClaren have to spend clearing up NC's mess, cutting his wage bill or trying to shift deadwood on high wages?

How much did McClaren have to cut the wage bill by? How much did McClaren have to worry about balancing the books in's v outs?

Good points Ronnie. What most fans don't seem to get about Clough, or any other manager for that matter, is the CONTEXT in which they're operating - they just look at results and league position.

I went to a meeting at Pride Park with Ton Glick when Clough was manager. I was expecting to be underwhelmed but Glick was actually pretty impressive and surprisingly open and honest. It was made pretty clear by Glick that Clough was working under such severe financial constraints that he'd more or less "got one hand tied behind his back". This was simply because (in Glick's words), there wasn't a viable business model for football clubs in the Championship.

People forget but this was at the time when we desperately needed a new striker but couldn't afford to buy a decent one e.g. we were unable to compete with Huddersfield for James Vaughan and were continuously linked with, but never signed, Bill Sharpe. Glick said we'd need another 10,000 on the gate to finance a new striker of that calibre. Clough somehow managed to halve the wage bill whilst improving our league position year-on-year and subsequently even managed to solve the striker problem by pulling off the masterstroke of signing Chris Martin on a free.

We'll never know now whether Clough would have eventually succeeded in getting us promoted but given the financial constraints he was working under, IMHO he should have at least given him until the end of the season in which he was sacked, given that he'd finally managed to somehow piece together a squad capable of challenging for the play-offs (as McClaren proved that same season). He'd earned that.

As for Rush, I also went to a similar Q&A event with him before Clough was sacked. He seemed to know very little about football (not even in relation to it's business model aspects) and seemed completely incapable of giving a straight answer to a simple question.

Not long after that he sacked Clough, and stated that one of the reasons for this decision was the need to improve player recruitment. Given the financial constraints Clough was operating under and the fact that he'd nevertheless managed to acquire Chris Martin, Craig Bryson, Richard Keogh, Craig Forsyth, Jamie Ward, Johhny Russell, Jake Buxton and John Brayford I felt Rush's comments where incredibly unfair and have been looking forward to the day he left the club ever since.

Good riddance Sam.

[archied]

23 minutes ago, Red Ram said:

Good points Ronnie. What most fans don't seem to get about Clough, or any other manager for that matter, is the CONTEXT in which they're operating - they just look at results and league position.

I went to a meeting at Pride Park with Ton Glick when Clough was manager. I was expecting to be underwhelmed but Glick was actually pretty impressive and surprisingly open and honest. It was made pretty clear by Glick that Clough was working under such severe financial constraints that he'd more or less "got one hand tied behind his back". This was simply because (in Glick's words), there wasn't a viable business model for football club's in the Championship.

People forget but this was at the time when we desperately needed a new striker but couldn't afford to buy a decent one e.g. we were unable to compete with Huddersfield for James Vaughan and were continuously linked with, but never signed, Bill Sharpe. Glick said we'd need another 10,000 on the gate to finance a new striker of that calibre. Clough somehow managed to halve the wage bill whilst improving our league position year-on-year and subsequently even managed to solve the striker problem by pulling off the masterstroke of signing Chris Martin on a free.

We'll never know now whether Clough he would have eventually succeeded in getting us promoted but given the financial constraints he was working under, IMHO he should have at least given him until the end of the season in which he was sacked, given that he'd finally managed to somehow piece together a squad capable of challenging for the play-offs (as McClaren proved that season). He'd earned that.

As for Rush, I also went to a similar Q&A event with him before Clough was sacked. He seemed to know very little about football (not even in relation to it's business model aspects) and seemed completely incapable of giving a straight answer to a simple question.

Not long after that he sacked Clough, and stated that one of the reasons for this decision was the need to improve player recruitment. Given the financial constraints Clough was operating under and the fact that he'd nevertheless managed to acquire Chris Martin, Craig Bryson, Richard Keogh, Craig Forsyth, Jamie Ward, Johhny Russell, Jake Buxton and John Brayford I felt Rush's comments where incredibly unfair and have been looking forward to the day he left the club ever since.

Good riddance Sam.

The above is a fantastic post ,,, it's worth remembering that although clough s team did click or hit great form under Mac the issue of crowds/gates rising may well be linked heavily to the fact that we looked to have become more ambitious in players coming in either permanent or loaned

[sage]

3 hours ago, David said:

I didn't ask for a cat photo.

https://resizing.flixster.com/sFymDnU25ACitPCMpxYPeCvkGCA=/206x305/v1.bTsxMTE2ODAzNTtqOzE3NDA5OzEyMDA7ODAwOzEyMDA

 

[DEL]

4 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

Zzzzzzz.

Go to bed then. 

[cannable]

There's no black and white answer to the Clough debate. 

Had we stuck with him we'd be in a far better off in footballing terms but would we have the infrastructure Mel's invested in? 

Had we won at Wembley we'd be in a far better position all round.

Had we spent that £40,000,000 well we'd be lightyears ahead of where Clough could have taken us.

Replacing Clough was a risk which paid off in the short term which presented us with another risk we took, which ultimately ruined Clough and McClaren's squad and sent us backwards in footballing terms. 

It's that initial £25,000,000 which leaves me bitter. That's the bit we got wrong. 

[ramblur]

Just to add to that @Red Ram,I distinctly remember a forum at the training ground featuring Clough & Glick,in which Nigel said we needed some quality in the side,and that this would have to come from the Academy,either from the actual players,or by selling same and buying quality.I don't remember Glick shaking his head.

[ronnieronalde]

2 minutes ago, Derby_EnglandLoyal said:

Go to bed then. 

Just giving you a taste of your own medicine young man.

You're one of the most unusual posters on here, you can be really harsh but then get frustrated if anyone else is.

Replying usually in two or three words and generally behaving a touch aggressively.

Your views on NC are proving to be more and more inaccurate. Much as I admit I made a mistake thinking Pearson is a good manager and would do a god job, it's about time you got off your high horse and admitted you were/are wrong about NC being a poor manager.

I won't hold my breath.

[DEL]

5 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Just giving you a taste of your own medicine young man.

You're one of the most unusual posters on here, you can be really harsh but then get frustrated if anyone else is.

Replying usually in two or three words and generally behaving a touch aggressively.

Your views on NC are proving to be more and more inaccurate. Much as I admit I made a mistake thinking Pearson is a good manager and would do a god job, it's about time you got off your high horse and admitted you were/are wrong about NC being a poor manager.

I won't hold my breath.

NC are poor manager and that'll never change my 'views' about him anyway. Forest away 1-0 down and he made a sub at 90 Minutes and there are more other things that he got it wrong so many times. 

[IlsonDerby]

6 hours ago, Derby_EnglandLoyal said:

NO WE AREN'T WRONG REGARDING NIGEL THE CLUELESS CLOUGH SACKING. BEST THING EVER THAT DERBY COUNTY EVER DONE. ?

I'd say hiring Clough senior was the best thing that 'derby county ever done' but what do I know 

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, Red Ram said:

Given the financial constraints Clough was operating under and the fact that he'd nevertheless managed to acquire Chris Martin, Craig Bryson, Richard Keogh, Craig Forsyth, Jamie Ward, Johhny Russell, Jake Buxton and John Brayford I felt Rush's comments where incredibly unfair and have been looking forward to the day he left the club ever since.

Good riddance Sam.

Thing is Clough was never going to get out of those players the results Mac did. We were going mid-table mediocrity with Clough. Mac made the team greater than the sum of its parts.

[davenportram]

I think the person who warned Clough about Rush may have been right. Cloughs words in an interview after being sacked

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/540857/Nigel-Clough-Derby-chief-return-old-club-Burton

Quote

He added: “We didn’t know him but people said be very careful. One even said ‘the ego has landed!’

“That’s what someone within football told us.”

[DEL]

3 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

I'd say hiring Clough senior was the best thing that 'derby county ever done' but what do I know 

I put the wording wrong in there and I did put the other post best decision ever is that better? And no one answered to that post. So I'm sorry if that's mixed up about it.

 Obviously Brian Clough was the best thing for the Rams I agreed. 

[davenportram]

If anyone thinks a manager that keeps a team in the championship while having to cut the wage bill by over 60% and off load 39 players is a poor manager then they are either very silly or just swallow any garbage from the decision makers

 

before anyone quotes my Clough out Rant saying I wanted change is different to saying Clough is a poor manager.

 

[Day]

Just now, davenportram said:

before anyone quotes my Clough out Rant saying I wanted change is different to saying Clough is a poor manager.

I feel like you're talking to me when I'm completely innocent 

[davenportram]

Just now, David said:

I feel like you're talking to me when I'm completely innocent 

Do you have it as one of your favourites still?

[IlsonDerby]

2 minutes ago, Derby_EnglandLoyal said:

I put the wording wrong in there and I did put the other post best decision ever is that better? And no one answered to that post. So I'm sorry if that's mixed up about it.

 Obviously Brian Clough was the best thing for the Rams I agreed. 

I just think that you're being so over critical. 

The three amigos fxcking off another better moment for us than sacking Clough. The chains being taken off the baseball ground in the 80s when we were nearly liquidated was another moment that was much better for Derby than sacking Clough. 

It seems you made your mind up about him and rather than make your point with facts and well thought out opinions you'd just make rash statements? 

I don't laud him as a hero but I do think he turned us around and made that play off final season possible with his sensible squad building for 5 years. Can you shed some light on which parts of his tenure lead you to believing that his sacking was so important for us?

[Day]

1 minute ago, davenportram said:

Do you have it as one of your favourites still?

Nah, had to make room for my Curtains posts