Nigel Clough Sacking

[ramsbottom]

40 minutes ago, ramblur said:

I was giving stats,not massaging them. I've never claimed Sammon was a world beater,just not as bad as some make out.If he couldn't finish for toffee,I'm not sure where his 9 12/13 goals came from. Some claimed that Clough shouldn't have been given money to spend because of Sammon,but what about Russell,Keogh,Shackell and Barker?If a manager were to be deemed untrustworthy in the transfer market on the back of 1 poor transaction for (semi) decent money,then a hell of a lot of pretty good managers should have got the chop over the years.

He may have scored 9 goals, but do you have the stats for how many goal scoring chances he missed???

I don't subscribe to the notion he wasn't trusted by the yanks to spend any decent money, as I stated before Nigel was a very astute judge of talent.  He just couldn't get the maximum out of them.  Plus it's a myth that Schteve had a lot of money to spend once he replaced him, the season he did, he only brought in loans, wasn't his only permanent signing Dawkins for around £400k???  The season after was pretty much the same, a nominal fee for Christie & a whopping £1.5m (a Barker type fee) on Thorne, the rest loans.  Therefore Schteve did better with the same restrictions...

[Seth's left foot]

2 hours ago, TelTheRam said:

And the reason Moxey was playing there was because we didn't have a fit striker available.

 

If its the game I'm thinking about, but can't remember who against, I think we played with a front 3 of Commons, Bueno & Cwyka.

Yeah with Kuqi up front, 4-2-3-1 and they passed the other team to death. This in turn created a great atmosphere but it just seemed to go downhill from there. 

Won 2-0 I think.

[ramsbottom]

13 minutes ago, Seth's left foot said:

Yeah with Kuqi up front, 4-2-3-1 and they passed the other team to death. This in turn created a great atmosphere but it just seemed to go downhill from there. 

Won 2-0 I think.

It went down hill when Kuqi's loan finished and we couldn't get him back.  After that we brought in Luke Moore, tried the same formation and it died on it's arse.  Cue reverting back to 4-4-2 hoof...

[ronnieronalde]

1 hour ago, rynny said:

He started half of the games for Clough that season.

Me and you rarely row these days Rynny, I've got a much better understanding of where you're coming from and accept you might be spot on on quite a few occasions...

but come on pal, there's no way anyone else other than Clough is claiming the credit for Eustace playing DM, he was signed by NC, who took an incredible amount of stick for signing him in the first place, he would have started first choice but was carrying a knock.

This McClaren made Eustace and McClaren transformed Buxton in to a player does my nut in a bit as well.

NC takes the stick for signing duffers, journeymen and non league upstarts, then McClaren takes the praise for making them players.

Doesn't sit well with me.

[eddie]

6 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Me and you rarely row these days Rynny, I've got a much better understanding of where you're coming from and accept you might be spot on on quite a few occasions...

but come on pal, there's no way anyone else other than Clough is claiming the credit for Eustace playing DM, he was signed by NC, who took an incredible amount of stick for signing him in the first place, he would have started first choice but was carrying a knock.

This McClaren made Eustace and McClaren transformed Buxton in to a player does my nut in a bit as well.

NC takes the stick for signing duffers, journeymen and non league upstarts, then McClaren takes the praise for making them players.

Doesn't sit well with me.

There are a lot on here for whom Nigel will always be NLN. If he is eventually prised away from Burton and he makes a success of managing in the Premier League, it will still be the same.

[rynny]

1 minute ago, ronnieronalde said:

Me and you rarely row these days Rynny, I've got a much better understanding of where you're coming from and accept you might be spot on on quite a few occasions...

but come on pal, there's no way anyone else other than Clough is claiming the credit for Eustace playing DM, he was signed by NC, who took an incredible amount of stick for signing him in the first place, he would have started first choice but was carrying a knock.

This McClaren made Eustace and McClaren transformed Buxton in to a player does my nut in a bit as well.

NC takes the stick for signing duffers, journeymen and non league upstarts, then McClaren takes the praise for making them players.

Doesn't sit well with me.

I wasn't claiming anything, people asked how often he played under Nige and I provided the stats. And, tbh, I missed a few games at the start of the season as I was either away or working, so I wouldn't even want to suggest how we were playing all the games, I remember that we played the diamond formation quite a few games at the start with Coutts sitting (Brighton being a prime example of Coutts having a good game) I don't really remember Clough using 4-3-3, as there were complaints about Ward drifting out to the left wing when he was supposed to be behind Martin and Russell, think Clough was on about it after one of the home defeats, either Leicester or Burnley I think.

I think what it is with people's memory is Mac changing it as Wassall was playing 4-4-2 against Ipswich and Mac changed it to 4-3-3 took Sammon and Ben Davies off brought Eustace and Bennett on and we went from there.

Again not claiming Clough didn't play 4-3-3 juat don't remember it.

[Jayram]

8 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

We never seemed to make progress?

Do you have any facts to back this up?

The fact that we never once challenged the top six in his time yet did so in the very season he was sacked, with more or less the same squad of players he'd had. 

I know certain members of this forum have a continuing attachment to the bloke but he was not good enough to take this club forward and the majority of us, while recognising he did a decent job in stabilising things, had had enough. Nothing that's happened since has changed my own view; I'm glad he's not our manager but I wish him well at Burton.

[ramblur]

1 hour ago, ramsbottom said:

He may have scored 9 goals, but do you have the stats for how many goal scoring chances he missed???

I don't subscribe to the notion he wasn't trusted by the yanks to spend any decent money, as I stated before Nigel was a very astute judge of talent.  He just couldn't get the maximum out of them.  Plus it's a myth that Schteve had a lot of money to spend once he replaced him, the season he did, he only brought in loans, wasn't his only permanent signing Dawkins for around £400k???  The season after was pretty much the same, a nominal fee for Christie & a whopping £1.5m (a Barker type fee) on Thorne, the rest loans.  Therefore Schteve did better with the same restrictions...

I don't remember saying that SM had a lot of money to spend,but seeing as you're saying that he operated under the same restrictions,I've the facts to dismantle that assertion.You've managed to come up with the lowest figures yet for the undisclosed Thorne/Christie fees,but the disclosed facts from the 13/14 accounts' PBSE show that we acquired players in the 14/15 summer window at an all in cost of £6,777,057,so you may be just a teeny weeny bit out there. Moving on to the January window you seem to have forgotten about the signings of Shotton,Albentosa and Warnock and the "only brought in loans" bit included Ibe,Lingaard,Ince and Bent,the kind of loans that Clough would never have been able to finance.After that feast,I haven't even bothered looking at 13/14 transfer activity.

Continuing the theme of "the same restrictions",the overall wages in 12/13 were £12.059m, in 13/14 they shot up to £!6.386m, and in 14/15 to £21.767m.

However,SM was only allowed to field 11 players on the pitch at any one time,so you may have a point.

I've no idea how many Sammon missed,just as I've no idea how many Bent,Vydra,Nugent,Ince and Russell have missed this year.

[ramblur]

28 minutes ago, Jayram said:

The fact that we never once challenged the top six in his time yet did so in the very season he was sacked, with more or less the same squad of players he'd had. 

 

Clough didn't have the 13/14 squad in previous years,and wasn't allowed to show where he would finish with that squad.I wonder where SM would have finished in 9/10,10/11,11/12 and 12/13 with the squads available in those years?

[ramsbottom]

1 minute ago, ramblur said:

I don't remember saying that SM had a lot of money to spend,but seeing as you're saying that he operated under the same restrictions,I've the facts to dismantle that assertion.You've managed to come up with the lowest figures yet for the undisclosed Thorne/Christie fees,but the disclosed facts from the 13/14 accounts' PBSE show that we acquired players in the 14/15 summer window at an all in cost of £6,777,057,so you may be just a teeny weeny bit out there. Moving on to the January window you seem to have forgotten about the signings of Shotton,Albentosa and Warnock and the "only brought in loans" bit included Ibe,Lingaard,Ince and Bent,the kind of loans that Clough would never have been able to finance.After that feast,I haven't even bothered looking at 13/14 transfer activity.

Continuing the theme of "the same restrictions",the overall wages in 12/13 were £12.059m, in 13/14 they shot up to £!6.386m, and in 14/15 to £21.767m.

I've no idea how many Sammon missed,just as I've no idea how many Bent,Vydra,Nugent,Ince and Russell have missed this year.

You may not have said Schteve had more money, but the over-riding consensus on this thread is that Schteve got more out of roughly the same group of players than Nigel did.  The counter to that assertion is that if Nigel had the keys to the kingdom, he'd have been able to mount a creditable play off push.  My point is Schteve did it without spending umpteen millions like Clement & Pearson did.  Which in turn raises the question of why Nigel couldn't get anywhere near them, bar a couple of purple patches???  Because, in my opinion, he's limited in his tactics/coaching abilities... 

As for the transfer fees, I was referring to the 'reported' upfront fees.  I'm sure you'll point out that these are also wrong but I'm going off my memory of stories ran on the DET.  As for wages rising by £4m between 12/13 & 13/14? Nigel was in charge for the summer transfer window, so I'm assuming he was allowed to contribute to that increase?  

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, ramsbottom said:

It went down hill when Kuqi's loan finished and we couldn't get him back.  After that we brought in Luke Moore, tried the same formation and it died on it's arse.  Cue reverting back to 4-4-2 hoof...

Couldn't get him back - didn't want him more like. Preferred Luke Moore...

[cannable]

59 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

This McClaren made Eustace and McClaren transformed Buxton in to a player does my nut in a bit as well.

The thing with Bucko is that Clough used to play James O'Connor, a right-back by trade, over him if ever he wanted more 'football' at centre-half. I remember Clough stating that he'd play Bucko if ever we wanted somebody in there to "head it and kick it".

Then McClaren comes in and it turns out that Lord Jake is one of the best passers I've ever seen. Right-foot, left-foot, he'd spray them everywhere. Pirlo would have been proud of some of the passes he was picking out during the first-half of the Birmingham home game.

Eustace is more that he wasn't the automatic first choice he should have been. It was only when Hendrick got injured he started playing in the league games.

[ramblur]

42 minutes ago, ramsbottom said:

You may not have said Schteve had more money, but the over-riding consensus on this thread is that Schteve got more out of roughly the same group of players than Nigel did.  The counter to that assertion is that if Nigel had the keys to the kingdom, he'd have been able to mount a creditable play off push.  My point is Schteve did it without spending umpteen millions like Clement & Pearson did.  Which in turn raises the question of why Nigel couldn't get anywhere near them, bar a couple of purple patches???  Because, in my opinion, he's limited in his tactics/coaching abilities... 

As for the transfer fees, I was referring to the 'reported' upfront fees.  I'm sure you'll point out that these are also wrong but I'm going off my memory of stories ran on the DET.  As for wages rising by £4m between 12/13 & 13/14? Nigel was in charge for the summer transfer window, so I'm assuming he was allowed to contribute to that increase?  

The PBSE figures are facts from the audited accounts.I just remembered that I was looking at Global Derby accounts in those days and that their accounts were signed off later than DCFC,which meant that their PBSE figure featured both windows for the following season. The definitive spend for SM was £7,918,096. Never mind the keys to the kingdom,I wonder what NC could have done with that kind of money.

With regard to the £4m increase in wages,it's impossible to say who was responsible for it. However,Nigel brought in Grant,Martin,Russell,Forsyth and Eustace ,and ditched Luke Adams,Roberts,Fielding,Brayford,Robinson and Tyson,so there doesn't seem to be much of a wage increase there (Fees received  were reported to be twice those paid,in aggregate).On the other hand,SM brought in Cisse and Lee Naylor on frees;between 30th September and 28th November he brought in Whitbread,Dawkins,Wisdom and Keane on loan,and in January he brought in Bamford and Thorne on loan, so I know where my money's going  

Just to finish,clough loaned out Atkins,Doyle,Ball,Tom Naylor,Morch and O'Connor,whilst SM loaned out Jacobs,Freeman and Ball (again).

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, Jayram said:

The fact that we never once challenged the top six in his time yet did so in the very season he was sacked, with more or less the same squad of players he'd had. 

I know certain members of this forum have a continuing attachment to the bloke but he was not good enough to take this club forward and the majority of us, while recognising he did a decent job in stabilising things, had had enough. Nothing that's happened since has changed my own view; I'm glad he's not our manager but I wish him well at Burton.

You claimed we were making no process though.

Surely league position is a pretty good indicator of whether you're progressing or not.

And just for info I think the NC sacking was the right decision. 

[ramblur]

For those who think that the £6.7m+ PBSE figure for the summer 14/15 window looks high for just Thorne and Christie (although it does include agents' fees +League levy),I'd point out that we signed several young players.Although Wiki gives the fees as "free",I'd be surprised if compensation hadn't been paid (along with agents' fees).There would no doubt have been agent's fees involved in the Whitbread transfer as well.

[ronnieronalde]

1 hour ago, cannable said:

The thing with Bucko is that Clough used to play James O'Connor, a right-back by trade, over him if ever he wanted more 'football' at centre-half. I remember Clough stating that he'd play Bucko if ever we wanted somebody in there to "head it and kick it".

Then McClaren comes in and it turns out that Lord Jake is one of the best passers I've ever seen. Right-foot, left-foot, he'd spray them everywhere. Pirlo would have been proud of some of the passes he was picking out during the first-half of the Birmingham home game.

Eustace is more that he wasn't the automatic first choice he should have been. It was only when Hendrick got injured he started playing in the league games.

Blimey I'm likely to start rubbing people up the wrong here (again).

I don't buy that at all cannable. Not having it.

24 games in his first season in 2009  and tit was only that low cos he had a groin injury that kept him out towards the end of the season, the whole of the next preseason and eventually led to the hip injury which saw him only make one appearance in 2010. You've got to remember as the stick Buxton was getting off the fans, maybe memories are short but he wasn't always help up as a legend. There was a good 18 months where he got salted and NC got slated for playing him, DESPITE him being at least as good as others getting game time.

Then as soon as Barks was injured  he was first choice whenever fit.

He could always play, his passing was always decent, he'd even do Cruyff turns in the centre circle, just you lot couldn't get past the fact he was a free from Burton Albion signed by a non-league manager, Bucko didn't start getting the credit he deserved (from quite a big majority of the louder posters) until NC was fired.

History being re-written, same with Martin, McClaren gets all the credit while it was NC who plucked him from obscurity and played him through that loan spell where a lot of you labelled him fat and lazy....and NC was labelled a duck egg who couldn't spot a striker if it hit him in the face.

No wonder I don't trust the majority of football fans views, they see what they want to see and miss what they want to miss.

 

[cannable]

9 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Blimey I'm likely to start rubbing people up the wrong here (again).

I don't buy that at all cannable. Not having it.

24 games in his first season in 2009  and tit was only that low cos he had a groin injury that kept him out towards the end of the season, the whole of the next preseason and eventually led to the hip injury which saw him only make one appearance in 2010. You've got to remember as the stick Buxton was getting off the fans, maybe memories are short but he wasn't always help up as a legend. There was a good 18 months where he got salted and NC got slated for playing him, DESPITE him being at least as good as others getting game time.

Then as soon as Barks was injured  he was first choice whenever fit.

He could always play, his passing was always decent, he'd even do Cruyff turns in the centre circle, just you lot couldn't get past the fact he was a free from Burton Albion signed by a non-league manager, Bucko didn't start getting the credit he deserved (from quite a big majority of the louder posters) until NC was fired.

History being re-written, same with Martin, McClaren gets all the credit while it was NC who plucked him from obscurity and played him through that loan spell where a lot of you labelled him fat and lazy....and NC was labelled a duck egg who couldn't spot a striker if it hit him in the face.

No wonder I don't trust the majority of football fans views, they see what they want to see and miss what they want to miss.

I don't get your point. 12/13 was when we started playing it out from the back. And thus we swapped Keogh for Shacks and signed Jimmy OC. O'Connor started 9 games ahead of Bucko and Clough's reason was that the former was better on the ball.

[ronnieronalde]

2 hours ago, ramblur said:

I don't remember saying that SM had a lot of money to spend,but seeing as you're saying that he operated under the same restrictions,I've the facts to dismantle that assertion.You've managed to come up with the lowest figures yet for the undisclosed Thorne/Christie fees,but the disclosed facts from the 13/14 accounts' PBSE show that we acquired players in the 14/15 summer window at an all in cost of £6,777,057,so you may be just a teeny weeny bit out there. Moving on to the January window you seem to have forgotten about the signings of Shotton,Albentosa and Warnock and the "only brought in loans" bit included Ibe,Lingaard,Ince and Bent,the kind of loans that Clough would never have been able to finance.After that feast,I haven't even bothered looking at 13/14 transfer activity.

Continuing the theme of "the same restrictions",the overall wages in 12/13 were £12.059m, in 13/14 they shot up to £!6.386m, and in 14/15 to £21.767m.

However,SM was only allowed to field 11 players on the pitch at any one time,so you may have a point.

I've no idea how many Sammon missed,just as I've no idea how many Bent,Vydra,Nugent,Ince and Russell have missed this year.

Brilliant series of posts Ramblur, great to see you back on the forum by the way, keep your health pal, don't get too involved in posting pro's and cons, it'll drive you up the wall. I'll drop you a pm later tonight as well to say hello properly.

I've bolded that bit in particular. Just in case people have forgotten those two and Zak Whitbread were ALL signed with a view to replacing Bucko, the fans forums that Rush went on, the major topic was that NC was keeping faith with Bucko, eventually Sam agreed and did his interview the day he sacked Nige to say "we've listened to the fans and we've brought in a centre half in Zak Whtbread"

Zak Whitbread didn't play more than 5 games, got an extension on his contract that Sam (or maybe Steve Mc) had promised upon signing him. Shottom came in for AT LEAST 750k at the end of his loan spell which was agreed by Sam (or maybe Steve)/ Albentosa cost 600k (euro) I believe

NC was a clown for saying he believed the squad h had was good enough and he didn't want to sign anyone who wasn't any better than Bucko and Richard Keogh and got fired, Bucko stayed in the side AT THER EXPENS OF SHOTTON< WHITBREAD AND ALBENTOSA and McClaren gets hailed a master coach for transforming Jake's career?

Na, nope, niet, not on your nelly.

[ronnieronalde]

7 minutes ago, cannable said:

I don't get your point. 12/13 was when we started playing it out from the back. And thus we swapped Keogh for Shacks and signed Jimmy OC. O'Connor started 9 games ahead of Bucko and Clough's reason was that the former was better on the ball.

Ahead of the 2012–13 season, Buxton was placed as Derby's most experience available defender following the sale of Jason Shackell to Burnley and the injury to Barker, and Nigel Clough stated his faith in Buxton's ability to become a first team regular at Championship level,[29] Buxton opened the season with three goals in two games, with a brace in a 5–5 League Cup draw with Ssausagehorpe United[30] and a strike in the opening league game against Sheffield Wednesday.[31] Buxton spent the start of the season in and out of the starting line-up, competing with new signing James O'Connor to start alongside captain Richard Keogh, a battle Buxton was winning until he was sent off for a second bookable offence in the 3–0 loss at Peterborough United on 27 October 2012.[32] After several games on the bench after his suspension, Buxton returned to the starting before being ruled out for two months after picking up a knee injury following his goal in a 3–1 win against Leeds United.[33] Buxton returned to first team action in a 2–2 draw at Sheffield Wednesday[34] and was praised for his courage by Clough after he was forced to start at short notice due to an injury picked up by Mark O'Brien in the pre-match warm-up.[35] Buxton retained his place in the starting line-up alongside Keogh and scored his fifth goal of the season with an 88th-minute winner in a 2–1 win at Leeds United on 1 April.[36] Later on in the month, Buxton signed a new two-year contract.[37]

Despite losing his squad number of 5, Buxton was considered to be the first choice centre back for 2013–14, as Shaun Barker and Mark O'Brien were still recovering from knee injuries.[38]

http://www.wow.com/wiki/Jake_Buxton

http://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=33646&season_id=142 - Jakes appearances in 2012/13

I can do some more digging if you want Cannable, but you'll see from wow.com that he was injured for two months and you'll see soccerbase that bucko played 31 league games, the games he didn't' play in, he was injured or suspended.

NC did his usual trick of teaching a player a lesson after a sending off and a hammering at Peterboro, but for the rest of the games, he was never behind O'Connor. I'd also be fair and say maybe it took NC some time to trust that Jake could play week in week out to a consistently high level, especially with the ball at his feet.

[ramblur]

35 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said:

Brilliant series of posts Ramblur, great to see you back on the forum by the way, keep your health pal, don't get too involved in posting pro's and cons, it'll drive you up the wall. I'll drop you a pm later tonight as well to say hello properly.

I

Thanks ronnie. I remember when I came out of hospital I just posted that I didn't agree with the sacking,but that no amount of talk was ever going to bring him back.I managed to keep out of the Clough threads until a couple of years ago when my casual comment that we'd spent as much in one window as Clough's net spend over 4+ years (and that was before the really big spending set in) led to me getting my head bitten off.

However,this time round I've read so much that annoys me in terms of things stated as fact that simply aren't true that I've launched into it big time. I've had my say now and won't be joining in when this inevitably kicks off again in the future.

I didn't agree with the sacking initially because I think he should have been given more time in 13/14 to show what he could do with the squad he'd patiently assembled. I don't agree with it now because I believe that if Nigel had stayed we would have been in a far better position than now, with a fraction of the spend over the last few years.That's my opinion and others  will have different views.They won't change my mind,just as I won't change theirs