Should Rooney retire?

[Sexydadbod]

29 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

One of the biggest pieces of rubbish in football-the balon d'or.. Football is a TEAM game not an individual sport. How many of the class of 92 ever won it..? Without looking I would say none of them, because they knew it was a team game and even that pr1ck Beckham realised that he couldn't do what he did without his team mates. 

Rooney has had an incredible career, we have never witnessed a better striker in English history....ever...! I can't understand the hatred for him. 

You're ignoring what I'm saying mate. I think that Rooney has had a fantastic career. What I'm saying is he should have had an even BETTER career with the talent he had. Can you say at any stage in Rooney's career that he was the best forward in the world? For me no, but he had the potential to be THE best player in the world. If he had the work ethic of Ronaldo he would have easily become the best. The ex Man Utd fitness coach said that whilst Ronaldo was working to his max in the gym striving to become the best,Rooney didn't see the benefits of going to the gym and would do anything to prevent himself from going into the gym. 

[TheDeadlySaul]

Just now, McLovin said:

You're ignoring what I'm saying mate. I think that Rooney has had a fantastic career. What I'm saying is he should have had an even BETTER career with the talent he had. Can you say at any stage in Rooney's career that he was the best forward in the world? For me no, but he had the potential to be THE best player in the world. If he had the work ethic of Ronaldo he would have easily become the best. The ex Man Utd fitness coach said that whilst Ronaldo was working to his max in the gym striving to become the best,Rooney didn't see the benefits of going to the gym and would do anything to prevent himself from going into the gym. 

The reason Rooney never achieved his full potential was he was turned into more of utility man up-front rather then an out and out striker. If SAF kept him as a striker he would have been world class for longer, but he has played in midfield, on the wing, as an attacking midfield etc. all his career. 

[Bridgford Ram]

He should be dropped.  He isn't good enough in his actual position anymore and it now seems that Allardyce, like Hodgson before him is shoe horning him into the team rather than be the one who dropped Wayne Rooney.

The most disappointing element of Allardyce's reign wasn't the performance, it wasn't even his admission that he told Rooney he could play where he wanted, it was when he said Rooney had played well, when it was plain to everyone that he hadn't.  Allardyce wasn't the perfect England manager but I thought the things he would bring were a straight talking no nonsense approach and refusal to take any ****.  He lost me with that comment.

[Sexydadbod]

1 hour ago, TheDeadlySaul said:

The reason Rooney never achieved his full potential was he was turned into more of utility man up-front rather then an out and out striker. If SAF kept him as a striker he would have been world class for longer, but he has played in midfield, on the wing, as an attacking midfield etc. all his career. 

Messi fulfilled his potential despite playing in a number of positions as have a number of other top players so that's not really an excuse. Rooney has played up front more often than not. If Rooney had looked after his body when younger by following a proper nutritious diet and worked in the gym he would have still been world class now imo. There was once a time at Man Utd where Rooney was a better player than Ronaldo and by quite a bit but Rooney slacked off whereas Ronaldo was a workaholic machine and soon surpassed Rooney, the rest is history. Ibrahimovic is nearly 35 but he is still performing as well as he was when be was 25. It goes to show if you have the drive to be the best and do whatever you can to look after your body in your early career, you can prolong your latter career and continue to perform at a extremely high level. 

[satty atwal]

Im not going to grt into a debate on what i think of rooney before the vultures start circling again.... however.... i said the only reason he has had so many caps and goals is because from owen until the kane vardy lot.... he was unchallenged for his spot.... he was the best of a dire bunch. 

I will ask the question AGAIN.... would rooney have even made the england squad in euro 96 with the likes of shearer sheringham fowler ferdinand wright collymore le tissier cole about? Not a chance in my opinion.... and we had gazza.... oh they were the days

[Highgate]

Excellent player and he has had a great career.  However on the international stage, when it has mattered most he hasn't really delivered for England, so for that reason you can say that he hasn't really reached the heights people were predicting for him when he first burst onto the scene.  Indeed, he hasn't reached the levels he set for himself.  In 2006 he said he was targeting Ronaldo's record (since broken by Klose) of 15 goals at World Cup finals.  So far he's got 1.  So it's surely fair to say that he hasn't quite matched the expectations he had for himself at the highest level of international competition. 

[Carl Sagan]

I think he was 18 when he moved from Everton. He's gone backwards since around age 22 but has lived off his early reputation. He looked as though he might become "world class" in his early years, but never achieved it. It's a fluke of the fixture list and testimony to the lack of talent we used to have that he equalled (with a penalty against San Marino) and then broke (with a penalty against Switzerland) the scoring record. I was embarrassed for him when he seized the ball on both occasions. Surely I thought if he were to break the record he'd want to do it in style from open play?

I should have known better. Of his goals from England, in his long career he's rarely scored against anyone of note. More than a third of all those goals have come against just five footballing powerhouses: San Marino, Switzerland, Kazakhstan, Croatia and Iceland. Though we mustn't forget he's also bagged a brace against Andorra.

Exactly where should he play for England?

• He seems to want to be a defensive midfielder but he's nowhere near as good as Dier or Drinkwater there (or many more).
• Some people want him as the link man, in the hole behind the striker(s), but that stops Dele Alli playing there, for instance.
• Perhaps he should be an out-and-out striker but he's not in the top 20 Premier League strikers and fitting him in takes a place away from the likes of Kane/Vardy/Sturridge/Rashford.
• Maybe given Joe Harte's troubles we should try him in goal?

Basically, Rooney is a utility player who's not as good as the specialist players but they get shunted around because Rooney is seemingly undroppable. Utter madness. For those on here talking about "the hate towards Rooney" I have none. I just hate the way England will never be able to play to their potential until the managers move on and start picking the best players for the job. We have talented players now but by trying to build the team around Rooney we're not maxmizing our potential.

 

[uttoxram75]

14 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

I think he was 18 when he moved from Everton. He's gone backwards since around age 22 but has lived off his early reputation. He looked as though he might become "world class" in his early years, but never achieved it. It's a fluke of the fixture list and testimony to the lack of talent we used to have that he equalled (with a penalty against San Marino) and then broke (with a penalty against Switzerland) the scoring record. I was embarrassed for him when he seized the ball on both occasions. Surely I thought if he were to break the record he'd want to do it in style from open play?

I should have known better. Of his goals from England, in his long career he's rarely scored against anyone of note. More than a third of all those goals have come against just five footballing powerhouses: San Marino, Switzerland, Kazakhstan, Croatia and Iceland. Though we mustn't forget he's also bagged a brace against Andorra.

Exactly where should he play for England?

• He seems to want to be a defensive midfielder but he's nowhere near as good as Dier or Drinkwater there (or many more).
• Some people want him as the link man, in the hole behind the striker(s), but that stops Dele Alli playing there, for instance.
• Perhaps he should be an out-and-out striker but he's not in the top 20 Premier League strikers and fitting him in takes a place away from the likes of Kane/Vardy/Sturridge/Rashford.
• Maybe given Joe Harte's troubles we should try him in goal?

Basically, Rooney is a utility player who's not as good as the specialist players but they get shunted around because Rooney is seemingly undroppable. Utter madness. For those on here talking about "the hate towards Rooney" I have none. I just hate the way England will never be able to play to their potential until the managers move on and start picking the best players for the job. We have talented players now but by trying to build the team around Rooney we're not maxmizing our potential.

 

Agree with that Carl.

The reason Alf Ramsay won the world cup was because he was bloody-minded enough to drop the so called best players and pick a team to win games. A TEAM....not the media darlings or the players who are most talented.

Nobby Stiles would not have got into any other England managers side, nor would a slow donkey like Geoff Hurst, its the equivalent of John Eustace and Chris Martin being the keystones of a successful team....

Brian Clough built his title winning sides round John McGovern and John O'Hare.....there's loads of examples of great teams containing players who are not widely recognised as the best players in their position but nevertheless contributed to winning trophies.

How many Premier league clubs were fighting to sign Wes Morgan, Robert Huth and Danny Drinkwater last January when it was obvious they were playing vital roles in Leicester running away with the title? Why didn't Drinkwater go to France?

I really thought Big Sam would have been the man to break the mould of sycophantic England managers who never had the gonads to decide between Gerrard and Lampard (for instance) even though every football fan in the country knew they couldn't play together! Didn't Emile Heskey get played out wide rather than dropped as a striker...?????

C'mon Sam, ignore the press, the experts, the pundits and the fans....pick a team to win games, not on reputations.

[RamuelLJackson]

51 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

Of his goals from England, in his long career he's rarely scored against anyone of note. More than a third of all those goals have come against just five footballing powerhouses: San Marino, Switzerland, Kazakhstan, Croatia and Iceland. Though we mustn't forget he's also bagged a brace against Andorra.

And Bobby Charlton scored 27 of his 49 international goals against just five footballing powerhouses: Luxembourg, USA, Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland. Though we mustn't forget he also bagged four against Mexico and three against Switzerland.

We can play this game if you want but it'll be true of lots of top strikers. Gary Lineker's England scoring tally drops by 22 if you remove his goals against Malaysia, Turkey, Cameroon, Poland and Northern Ireland. Point made, I think.

[uttoxram75]

6 minutes ago, RamuelLJackson said:

And Bobby Charlton scored 27 of his 49 international goals against just five footballing powerhouses: Luxembourg, USA, Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland. Though we mustn't forget he also bagged four against Mexico and three against Switzerland.

We can play this game if you want but it'll be true of lots of top strikers. Gary Lineker's England scoring tally drops by 22 if you remove his goals against Malaysia, Turkey, Cameroon, Poland and Northern Ireland. Point made, I think.

The difference is Charlton and Lineker did it in major competitions not just qualifying.

[RamuelLJackson]

Now that's a much stronger point. Mostly I think the schedule these days allows for a Rooney to score more goals than better players could in years gone by. I just think it's missing the point to talk about a third of his goals being against weak opposition, when almost a half of Charlton and Lineker's goals were too.

[MuespachRam]

4 hours ago, satty atwal said:

Im not going to grt into a debate on what i think of rooney before the vultures start circling again.... however.... i said the only reason he has had so many caps and goals is because from owen until the kane vardy lot.... he was unchallenged for his spot.... he was the best of a dire bunch. 

I will ask the question AGAIN.... would rooney have even made the england squad in euro 96 with the likes of shearer sheringham fowler ferdinand wright collymore le tissier cole about? Not a chance in my opinion.... and we had gazza.... oh they were the days

Yes Rooney would have got in that squad, he would have been ahead of Shearer for one, he hadn't scored in god knows how many games before the tournament. He would have been ahead of sharing ham, who was also in and out of the team, as for fowler, Les, Collymore, le Tissier and Cole, he would have been absolutely miles ahead of all those....miles ahead of them. 

 

[Day]

I never share my ham

[Carl Sagan]

11 hours ago, RamuelLJackson said:

And Bobby Charlton scored 27 of his 49 international goals against just five footballing powerhouses: Luxembourg, USA, Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland. Though we mustn't forget he also bagged four against Mexico and three against Switzerland.

We can play this game if you want but it'll be true of lots of top strikers. Gary Lineker's England scoring tally drops by 22 if you remove his goals against Malaysia, Turkey, Cameroon, Poland and Northern Ireland. Point made, I think.

Love the username and profile pic, but when you're trying to equate Charlton's record and bring in "Scotland, Wales, N Ireland" that's because we had these hard-fought competitive games called the Home Internationals that were played every year and so will have made up a decent proportion of Charlton's caps.

You list Cameroon for Lineker, where two of those goals were in an incredibly tense World Cup Quarter Final, and Poland against whom Lineker scored a hattrick in an epic World Cup match that England had to win to qualify for the knockout stages on the way to beating Maradonna to the Golden Boot in the tournament.

Rooney''s single goal spread across three World Cup finals gives a more realistic view of his abilities at the highest level. He's definitely had a good career and made a lot of money but if you could step back into a time machine and revisit his late teens what became of him is frustrating and disappointing. And no longer justifies inclusion in the national squad.

[Mostyn6]

How many goals did Messi score in World Cups?

[Day]

5

[Anon]

4 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

How many goals did Messi score in World Cups?

5. 4 more than Rooney.

Messi = 0.33 goals/world cup finals game

Rooney = 0.09 goals/world cup finals game

Statistically, Rooney is just as likely to get sent off in the world cup finals as he is to score a goal.

[Mostyn6]

3 minutes ago, Anon said:

5. 4 more than Rooney.

Messi = 0.33 goals/world cup finals game

Rooney = 0.09 goals/world cup finals game

Statistically, Rooney is just as likely to get sent off in the world cup finals as he is to score a goal.

so let me get this straight. Fans moan about players being not bothered and playing for themselves and not the team, yet the one player we have left (since canning Terry) gets judged harshly for being a hard-working team player who isn't out for himself.

There are better players then Rooney that have worse World Cup stats I bet. But Rooney is still one of England's better players, and epitomises everything most fans say they want an England player to be. He's just an easy target.

[RamuelLJackson]

19 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

Love the username and profile pic, but when you're trying to equate Charlton's record and bring in "Scotland, Wales, N Ireland" that's because we had these hard-fought competitive games called the Home Internationals that were played every year and so will have made up a decent proportion of Charlton's caps.

You list Cameroon for Lineker, where two of those goals were in an incredibly tense World Cup Quarter Final, and Poland against whom Lineker scored a hattrick in an epic World Cup match that England had to win to qualify for the knockout stages on the way to beating Maradonna to the Golden Boot in the tournament.

Rooney''s single goal spread across three World Cup finals gives a more realistic view of his abilities at the highest level. He's definitely had a good career and made a lot of money but if you could step back into a time machine and revisit his late teens what became of him is frustrating and disappointing. And no longer justifies inclusion in the national squad.

I remember the home internationals. They were hard fought. They were often against not high quality opponents though.

One of those Cameroon games was tense and important, Cameroon still weren't high quality opponents though. The Poland game you mention was also important, in context, Poland still weren't a good side.

If you'd based your argument on pressure and importance then your points here would be good ones. Unfortunately you based it on quality of opponent. Of course if you'd based it on pressure and importance then it might be that some of those goals that you want to set aside because the opposition wasn't top quality might have a significance that undermines your position.

FWIW I think Rooney is over-rated based on a memory of how he was really good and could become amazing. He just stayed really good for a while, and then became good to fair. And thanks for your kind words about the name/pic. I was always a big fan of Cosmos.

[Anon]

23 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

so let me get this straight. Fans moan about players being not bothered and playing for themselves and not the team, yet the one player we have left (since canning Terry) gets judged harshly for being a hard-working team player who isn't out for himself.

There are better players then Rooney that have worse World Cup stats I bet. But Rooney is still one of England's better players, and epitomises everything most fans say they want an England player to be. He's just an easy target.

He is an easy target. I don't particularly think he should be dropped from the team, but I do object to the team being built around him. He's been a brilliant player for England, just not the talisman some hold him up as.