Half fan Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 Anyone else see Andy Murray's fantastic determination to win gold last night? Sure, he at times demonstrated fantastic skill to win points - but so did Tim Henman on occasions. The difference between nicely attired Tim and grunge-dressed Andy is that if Andy 'did not turn up' for a game or two last night, he ranted and raved at himself to make sure that he came grittily roaring back immediately in the next few games. Consequently most of Del Potro's potential winners were returned again and again until Andy's sheer accurate persistence forced the engaging Argentinian to make a mistake. If you are still with me, it might now get interesting. I submit that Schteve and Clement were in the Henman 'skills coaching' camp, whereas Mr Pearson is in the Murray 'grind the b.......ds down' camp. So I suggest that Mr Pearson sees too many Tims and not many/any Andy's in DCFC's squad. As character, grit and resilience are essential to get us out of the Championship (and the only way perhaps to survive in the Premier League given the number of expensive skilful players in so many Premier teams now), then maybe Uncle Mel finally has the right manager. It's going to be painful to watch until the Tims are replaced by the Andys, at which point we might indeed have a team of grunges playing grunge football. But at the end of this grunge rainbow, there might be gold! Come on you Andys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimeram Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 Do we have any McEnroe's. We could do with a few of him too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 If only Tim had had a decent coach he could have combined his refined skills with grungy grit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 the think most missing in Derby's team thus far is leadership. Someone to drag the team up by the scruff of their necks. We arguably had Buxton, and Pearson got rid of him. If Pearson was doing homework last season, he would already know we have no leaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Le Mesmer Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 I admire Andy Murray so much despite not liking tennis. When he steps out onto the court then it's him and him alone. If he fails or 'doesn't fancy it' then there are not another 10 others around him to bail him out. Being in such an isolated position means you either sink or swim. If you manage to swim then your mentality becomes strong and you succeed. One thing I've noticed over the past 20 years is the lack of characters in football. The ones who get things organised, who show they are leaders, who take things by the scruff of the neck and want to win at all costs. The Andy Murrays if you like. They have been replaced by a new generation of celtic sleeve tattooing, earphone listening, groomed product using, multi-coloured boot wearing, does my bum look big in this?, rich before they have achieved anything footballers. The Henmans I'm not condoning we go back to the dark ages of the 'AV IT!!' mentality of cloggers and bullies on the pitch but football has gone so far the other way that we need some to redress the balance and act as leaders and often childminders to some of these modern day players. Anyone for tennis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 12 minutes ago, Half fan said: Anyone else see Andy Murray's fantastic determination to win gold last night? Sure, he at times demonstrated fantastic skill to win points - but so did Tim Henman on occasions. Tim Henman was a well-meaning, hard working but ultimately not world-beating tennis player... He just wasn't of the quality required to be a world beater... Murray is genuinely a world class player... I'm sure hard work plays a part in that, as it does for the likes of Messi and Ronaldo... But he's a class above Henman... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Half fan Posted August 15, 2016 Author Share Posted August 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: If only Tim had had a decent coach he could have combined his refined skills with grungy grit! Ah, have you just hit the nail on the head?! A coach can help skills be developed. But a gritty character is ingrained not trained. We have had three years of proving the character is not ingrained and cannot be trained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Le Mesmer Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 7 minutes ago, cheron85 said: Tim Henman was a well-meaning, hard working but ultimately not world-beating tennis player... He just wasn't of the quality required to be a world beater... Murray is genuinely a world class player... I'm sure hard work plays a part in that, as it does for the likes of Messi and Ronaldo... But he's a class above Henman... Great points cheron about Messi and Ronaldo. These two are not only truly world class players due to ability but also because they work hard and produce just about every week for year upon year upon year and this has a positive influence on the players around them. They lead by example and take responsibility for their performances on the pitch. Just take Wayne Rooney v Iceland. Ambling about spraying aimless balls across the park at his own pace when the game needed leadership and someone to take responsibility. Everyone to a man that night passed over that responsibility to the next and then the next until the whole England team became a collective apathy. That's why I loved Gazza. Not just for his talent but he would have forsaken anything just to play football with all his heart and soul. Money, cars, the lot. He just wanted to play football and win. The tragic irony about Gazza was that he 'swam' on the football field and helped his team-mates around him become better players but off the field he sank and his team 'mates' moved on without him and not giving him a second thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 13 minutes ago, Half fan said: We have had three years of proving the character is not ingrained and cannot be trained. Or have we? No-one has really been allowed to suggest that the squad failed because of lack of 'character' all the emphasis has been on talent and injuries and 'smokescreen?' upset caused by Mac being headhunted. At crucial times they haven't got what it takes to get over the line, of course that can be taught imo. What can't be taught at their ages is skills! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 2 minutes ago, Tony Le Mesmer said: Great points cheron about Messi and Ronaldo. These two are not only truly world class players due to ability but also because they work hard and produce just about every week for year upon year upon year and this has a positive influence on the players around them. They lead by example and take responsibility for their performances on the pitch. Just take Wayne Rooney v Iceland. Ambling about spraying aimless balls across the park at his own pace when the game needed leadership and someone to take responsibility. Everyone to a man that night passed over that responsibility to the next and then the next until the whole England team became a collective apathy. That's why I loved Gazza. Not just for his talent but he would have forsaken anything just to play football with all his heart and soul. Money, cars, the lot. He just wanted to play football and win. The tragic irony about Gazza was that he 'swam' on the football field and helped his team-mates around him become better players but off the field he sank and his team 'mates' moved on without him and not giving him a second thought. My favourite example is David Beckham to be honest... A guy who by his own admission was nowhere near the talent levels of the players he was in the youth system with... But who stayed after training every day to run extra laps and practice set pieces, long passing and crossing... For hours... Went on to win major trophies in 4 countries? One of England's all time leading cap holders? Not bad proof that hard work can be a great boost to talent... Would be interesting to know who from the current squad takes that attitude... Would be interesting to know if any of them stay after training to work on anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Le Mesmer Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 Agree cheron85. I'm not averse to players wearing different coloured boots, making sure their hair isn't out of place and having intricate artistic body art despite what I just said earlier, so long as they do the business on the pitch. Not one week or one in 5 games but pretty much every week. Beckham did this so you have to admire his dedication and motivation. The problem is, that i'm pointing out is that most footballers nowadays have all the blingy stuff so to speak but none of the application and inherent will to become the best they can. That takes effort, a sense of duty to employers and supporters and desire. These modern times are filled with the Lallana types. Happy to be smearing face cream all over his mush on telly but not able to become any more than another in a long line of no doubt talented but ultimatley mediocre and inconsistent footballers. Beckham had the talent and the face cream but he also worked hard, found a winning mentality and came up with the goods and you couldn't begrudge him the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 41 minutes ago, oldtimeram said: Do we have any McEnroe's. We could do with a few of him too! You cannot be serious? Are you an ostrich? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Sagan Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 I think that's a great analogy from @Half fan in the opening post. Last night it was near inevitable Andy Murray would win and the first set sealed it. Had it been Henman in the Olympic final playing someone ranked below him, I would still have expected him to lose. People say Murray is a much more naturally gifted tennis player than Henman, but I'm not so sure. Neither has a "weapon" in the sense that many of the top players do (like an unstoppable first serve). In fact both their serves were similar in effectiveness and the weakness of their second serves. When Murray came onto the scene he would tire and sometimes cramp up in long matches. And he was criticized for that and told he'd never be a true top player because of his weediness and lack of stamina. The reason why it was inevitable Murray would win gold is because he turned himself into the fittest tennis player in the world. He was desperate to better himself and this was a weakness he could do something about that was not to do with natural ability. That's not easy. It was about having more drive than any other player to work harder in the gym than anyone else so that he can always outrun his opponents and stay in the game and take advantage when their fitness level drops. He's made his second serve stronger, and hits forehands and backhands better, but it is his attitude and will to win and nowadays arrogance and expectation that he will win that sets him apart. On the big points, the big moments in matches that are decided by fine margins, when Henman would normally lose, Murray will almost always prevail. But he knows other players sometimes have more so he has to work harder than them to wear them down. Are our players in a comfort zone where they're paid enough and do well enough that they're more like Henman, near the top, and not prepared to hurt and suffer and work harder than any other players at any other club to be the very best in this division and then, having done what it takes to get promoted, not settle for that but work harder still to establish themselves in the Prem. Or do they have it too easy and confortable in their oh so nice facilities and always being thereabouts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 35 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said: Are our players in a comfort zone where they're ... not prepared to hurt and suffer and work harder than any other players at any other club to be the very best in this division and then, having done what it takes to get promoted, not settle for that but work harder still to establish themselves in the Prem. Or do they have it too easy and confortable in their oh so nice facilities and always being thereabouts? I think that NP sees this as one of the squads problems. But there is also the trickier issues of believing they can succeed - the sort of thing that kept Leicester going all last season (and before) when it really wasn't possible, or was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEL Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 1 hour ago, Half fan said: Anyone else see Andy Murray's fantastic determination to win gold last night? Sure, he at times demonstrated fantastic skill to win points - but so did Tim Henman on occasions. The difference between nicely attired Tim and grunge-dressed Andy is that if Andy 'did not turn up' for a game or two last night, he ranted and raved at himself to make sure that he came grittily roaring back immediately in the next few games. Consequently most of Del Potro's potential winners were returned again and again until Andy's sheer accurate persistence forced the engaging Argentinian to make a mistake. If you are still with me, it might now get interesting. I submit that Schteve and Clement were in the Henman 'skills coaching' camp, whereas Mr Pearson is in the Murray 'grind the b.......ds down' camp. So I suggest that Mr Pearson sees too many Tims and not many/any Andy's in DCFC's squad. As character, grit and resilience are essential to get us out of the Championship (and the only way perhaps to survive in the Premier League given the number of expensive skilful players in so many Premier teams now), then maybe Uncle Mel finally has the right manager. It's going to be painful to watch until the Tims are replaced by the Andys, at which point we might indeed have a team of grunges playing grunge football. But at the end of this grunge rainbow, there might be gold! Come on you Andys! No sod Andy Murray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Half fan Posted August 15, 2016 Author Share Posted August 15, 2016 1 hour ago, cheron85 said: Not bad proof that hard work can be a great boost to talent... Would be interesting to know who from the current squad takes that attitude... Would be interesting to know if any of them stay after training to work on anything... Another very good point to come out of Rio. Anyone remember when British rowing (that's rowing on the water, not at the iPro) was a joke? Now even the men's eight has won gold. The secret - brilliant leadership by Jurgen Grobler, technological analysis and REALLY HARD WORK. Training at 06.00 every day of the year on the water and in the gym, repeated later in the day too. Similar factors have bred GB's cycling success also. DCFC have the technology and facilities. But are they wasted on a bunch of overpaid petrol-heads glued to their iPhones? What might DCFC achieve if Jurgen stuck his oar in and installed a new training regime here? If he brought his 6ft 6" rowers with him, we'd score headers at every corner for a start! Nat Lofthouse would spin in his grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tombo Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 Too many Nick Kyrgios's more like. http://www.skysports.com/tennis/news/32498/10376064/nick-kyrgios-says-he-has-no-love-for-tennis-as-critics-slam-effort-against-andy-murray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tombo Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 Quote "I don't love this sport," said Kyrgios, who works without a regular coach. "But I don't know what else to do without it. "One week, I'm pretty motivated to train and play. Another week, I'll just not do anything. I don't really know a coach who would be down for that one. "I'm just a little soft still. I think when things get tough, I'm a little bit soft. I've got experience, but it comes down to laying it all out there and competing for a long time. I didn't do that here at all. "To be honest, I woke up this morning [Monday] and played computer games. Is that the greatest preparation? I don't know. But it was fun. "Every time I come here, I lose to good players. But it's just disappointing. I don't know. I just want to do better." Sound familiar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 4 hours ago, Derby_EnglandLoyal said: No sod Andy Murray. Scottish when he loses, British when he wins. The thing is, he's not Scottish much any more - the last match he lost in singles was the French Open final. In fact, he has lost just one of his last 30 matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRBee Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 6 hours ago, Half fan said: Anyone else see Andy Murray's fantastic determination to win gold last night? Sure, he at times demonstrated fantastic skill to win points - but so did Tim Henman on occasions. The difference between nicely attired Tim and grunge-dressed Andy is that if Andy 'did not turn up' for a game or two last night, he ranted and raved at himself to make sure that he came grittily roaring back immediately in the next few games. Consequently most of Del Potro's potential winners were returned again and again until Andy's sheer accurate persistence forced the engaging Argentinian to make a mistake. If you are still with me, it might now get interesting. I submit that Schteve and Clement were in the Henman 'skills coaching' camp, whereas Mr Pearson is in the Murray 'grind the b.......ds down' camp. So I suggest that Mr Pearson sees too many Tims and not many/any Andy's in DCFC's squad. As character, grit and resilience are essential to get us out of the Championship (and the only way perhaps to survive in the Premier League given the number of expensive skilful players in so many Premier teams now), then maybe Uncle Mel finally has the right manager. It's going to be painful to watch until the Tims are replaced by the Andys, at which point we might indeed have a team of grunges playing grunge football. But at the end of this grunge rainbow, there might be gold! Come on you Andys! You have obviously forgotten what Andy Murray used to be like on his journey to the top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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