Jonathan Kodjia - Signed for Villa

[VulcanRam]

1 hour ago, Tombo said:

Fair comment, and fair question to ask. Personally I'd be happier keeping the style. We got into all sorts of mess trying to mess with the style too much early last season, but more importantly it has worked more than it has failed on a game by game basis so I'm happy to stick rather than twist.

But it's not my decision to make, and Pearson may have a different view. Fine, cool, I'm down with that, we'll see where it goes. But only a fool would change the system at the expense of the players. If changing the style means demoting our best striker in years to the bench and not using him, I'm not down with that. I don't care how much money gets spent on "the new guy" who's going to score our goals, what if he doesn't?

Let us not throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's the saying we've been hearing in relation to Derby for years. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Problem is, we keep doing it. We keep losing our minds and trying to change far too much. We bought a whole new team last year and now we're angry that it didn't stick immediately. It's not going to is it?

I remember Sam Rush saying after McClaren's second promotion failure that there's no need for a 'draconian review'. Then we went and let McClaren go, appointed Clement, got a new Chairman in Mel and spent close to £30m on a load of new players. If that's not drastic, I don't know what is. I'd hate to see a real draconian review from Rush. But my point is that we keep demanding this every year. After the Wembley heartbreak, even then there were people labelling us bottlers and saying our team just couldn't hack it. Well it's a self fulfilling prophesy. If your own fans say that about you, what would your enemies say.

We've spent lots of money on the players we have. We've invested a lot in the style, system and personnel here at Derby so lets please give it a real chance without upheaval all the time. 13/14 we had a managerial and stylistic change from Clough to McClaren, and since then we've had a lack of stability and focus on the plan. No season in the last three has seen Derby get through a whole season sticking to what we had.

13/14 was Mac's first season, we needed time to adapt to the style. We nearly made it.

14/15 Mac started to bottle it around Jan/Feb and started messing with the formations and the back four. Above all else kept flirting with Newcastle. Where's the stability?

15/16 Clement comes in, continues tinkering. Buys a metric fucktonne of new players. Plays #lineupbingo as some dubbed it on here. Finally starts to get results playing 4-3-3 that McClaren used. Bottled it around Dec/Jan and started tinkering again. Sacked. Where's the stability?

15/16 under Wassall, starts to get results using the 4-3-3 that McClaren used. Not experienced enough for the occasion but spirited 2nd leg against Hull. We nearly made it.

16/17......???

Well there's the question. Do you want us to go back to what got us results, the style we all know and love, or do you want to spend obscene amounts of money again and tinker over and over again? Whatever we do, it better work, and we better stick to it for a whole season. Otherwise we'll collapse again. And it's not the players that have bottled it either.

As Dave Mustaine from the band Megadeth says: "If there's a new way, I'll be first in line....But it better work this time!"

Or, we do not spend any money, use the highly talented squad we have but to better effect. Use players that were frozen out to better effect. Use in game management to better effect. I for one don't believe we need any great overhaul but I'll be delighted to see the end of the Martin up front in a 433 come hell or high water because regardless of what anyone says, it has failed us - here we are kicking off in the Championship once more. 

I love the fact that we've seen more of Bent, Weimann and Blackman in pre-season than we did collectively throughout the whole of last season. Bring on a system, as quoted above, that has two forwards, whether that involves Martin or not.

If we do go to two up front, Martin still has loads to offer and can still be the main man; it doesn't have to be that he has to play on his own or not at all, as some would believe.

Last season 433 became too predictable and too boring, and looks like its on its way out. Martin had his least effective season so far with us for one reason or another; perhaps even he would welcome a different system with someone closer to him.

 

 

[Woodley Ram]

19 minutes ago, McLovin said:

Wrong person 

Nope, post is one part , taking account of someone's opinion another?

[Sexydadbod]

2 minutes ago, Woodley Ram said:

Nope, post is one part , taking account of someone's opinion another?

Just re-read it. Only saw the Tombo part then my brain switched off 

[DCFCArmy]

I think we're on the edge when it comes to FFP, whether we like to admit or not we spent a lot of money last summer and in January and we're having to probably use a sell before buying strategy..

I don't think we should be looking to make many changes anyway, we've got a good set of players and with NP here we could be seeing more of what we spent 3m on last summer, Weimann deserves more of a chance as does Blackman imo. 

NP if given time will get sort the problems out.. I keep saying it but we shouldn't lose our minds if we start slow. 

[Tombo]

33 minutes ago, VulcanRam said:

Or, we do not spend any money, use the highly talented squad we have but to better effect. Use players that were frozen out to better effect. Use in game management to better effect. I for one don't believe we need any great overhaul but I'll be delighted to see the end of the Martin up front in a 433 come hell or high water because regardless of what anyone says, it has failed us - here we are kicking off in the Championship once more. 

I love the fact that we've seen more of Bent, Weimann and Blackman in pre-season than we did collectively throughout the whole of last season. Bring on a system, as quoted above, that has two forwards, whether that involves Martin or not.

If we do go to two up front, Martin still has loads to offer and can still be the main man; it doesn't have to be that he has to play on his own or not at all, as some would believe.

Last season 433 became too predictable and too boring, and looks like its on its way out. Martin had his least effective season so far with us for one reason or another; perhaps even he would welcome a different system with someone closer to him.

 

 

I'm fine with this, I just think we need to bring the best out of Martin if we're going two up top. Players win games first and foremost. 

Not just him, but Thorne? How does he do with less central midfielders? Would putting more midfield responsibility on Hughes as another example stifle his freedom to create? Does the new system help or hinder Tom Ince? 

These are the questions we need to be considering. I'm sure Pearson is, and this is why I don't envy his job. Very tough call. But we can't keep calling to change absolutely everything and buy new players to accommodate a system that may or may not work. We've got enough players, that's the bit I'm sure of. If a change of system is necessary, I'm behind it. I'm not behind splashing more cash needlessly. 

[VulcanRam]

17 minutes ago, Tombo said:

I'm fine with this, I just think we need to bring the best out of Martin if we're going two up top. Players win games first and foremost. 

Not just him, but Thorne? How does he do with less central midfielders? Would putting more midfield responsibility on Hughes as another example stifle his freedom to create? Does the new system help or hinder Tom Ince? 

These are the questions we need to be considering. I'm sure Pearson is, and this is why I don't envy his job. Very tough call. But we can't keep calling to change absolutely everything and buy new players to accommodate a system that may or may not work. We've got enough players, that's the bit I'm sure of. If a change of system is necessary, I'm behind it. I'm not behind splashing more cash needlessly. 

I don't think it will be too hard for Martin, as I said before it might be easier for him. Thorne is an interesting one. I think he's hugely talented, but he seems to be very much a defensive midfielder so would naturally sit at the base of a diamond with either three in front and then a tip plus a striker, or two with a tip and two strikers. Either way, looks like Ince will be the tip, playing as things stand based on what we've seen, behind one striker. 

Unlike you, I envy Pearson and his job. He's got really talented bunch of players, working in amazing surroundings and with a huge fanbase. Too many good players is a great problem to have! 

[EnigmaRam]

If Thorne was fit I'd go 4132. Would give NP his two up top, gets rid of the need for wingers (as we don't have any) and let's the midfielders be creative with Thorne sitting holding

[Gladram]

I think 433 is our most effective formation IF the main players are fit and on form. The problem is for periods of the season they aren't and others don't fit the system. 442 or 4411 are better formations for the squad, they just need to make it work as a team. 

[Tombo]

25 minutes ago, VulcanRam said:

Unlike you, I envy Pearson and his job. He's got really talented bunch of players, working in amazing surroundings and with a huge fanbase. Too many good players is a great problem to have! 

Well I'm envious as far as he gets to manage the best club in the land 

I think I'd love the job for about 5 minutes before I think about it and go "oh **** what am I supposed to do to sort this out?!"

High pressure and some big calls for him to make. He's got one of the most difficult situations to step into. He's got a lot of very talented lads and good facilities but so have the men who came before. He has to be different and get the job done and get us up. Deceptively tough ask. The pressure on his shoulders means the job he has is much harder than the one McClaren or Clement ever faced. 

[cannable]

4 hours ago, VulcanRam said:

Or, we do not spend any money, use the highly talented squad we have but to better effect. Use players that were frozen out to better effect. Use in game management to better effect. I for one don't believe we need any great overhaul but I'll be delighted to see the end of the Martin up front in a 433 come hell or high water because regardless of what anyone says, it has failed us - here we are kicking off in the Championship once more. 

I love the fact that we've seen more of Bent, Weimann and Blackman in pre-season than we did collectively throughout the whole of last season. Bring on a system, as quoted above, that has two forwards, whether that involves Martin or not.

If we do go to two up front, Martin still has loads to offer and can still be the main man; it doesn't have to be that he has to play on his own or not at all, as some would believe.

Last season 433 became too predictable and too boring, and looks like its on its way out. Martin had his least effective season so far with us for one reason or another; perhaps even he would welcome a different system with someone closer to him.

 

 

It's totally simplistic to say that 4-3-3 has failed is. 4-3-3 is the shape, not the system. The system under Clement was a stark contrast from McClaren and Wassall's. The way we defended was completely different, the amount of freedom the players were give was totally restricted, the way we used Martin was totally different, the way we supported Martin was totally different/none existent. I'd actually argued at times that Clement's shape was 4-2-3-1 too. Hendrick and Johnson were supposed to play behind Martin.

With everybody fit in an attacking 4-3-3, with Martin receiving midfield support and getting the ball to feet is yet to fail us. It has seen us finish third having been 14th after 10 games using a diamond, it saw us top after 33 games with the third best defensive record in the league before injuries struck and it brought us our best spell of last season. We have failed the system by not having natural cover, I.e natural Martin cover, another natural holding midfielder and players coming in that aren't particularly comfortable in the ball.

Martin had his least productive season because he was asked to work the channels and battle away. Whenever he did get support to feet he was isolated.

[Harrowram]

Are we realistically going to sign Kodjia or watch and wait while Brighton spend £8 million on Pritchard?

[VulcanRam]

6 hours ago, cannable said:

It's totally simplistic to say that 4-3-3 has failed is. 4-3-3 is the shape, not the system. The system under Clement was a stark contrast from McClaren and Wassall's. The way we defended was completely different, the amount of freedom the players were give was totally restricted, the way we used Martin was totally different, the way we supported Martin was totally different/none existent. I'd actually argued at times that Clement's shape was 4-2-3-1 too. Hendrick and Johnson were supposed to play behind Martin.

With everybody fit in an attacking 4-3-3, with Martin receiving midfield support and getting the ball to feet is yet to fail us. It has seen us finish third having been 14th after 10 games using a diamond, it saw us top after 33 games with the third best defensive record in the league before injuries struck and it brought us our best spell of last season. We have failed the system by not having natural cover, I.e natural Martin cover, another natural holding midfielder and players coming in that aren't particularly comfortable in the ball.

Martin had his least productive season because he was asked to work the channels and battle away. Whenever he did get support to feet he was isolated.

I agree it is simplistic to say it's failed us, but then football is, or ought to be, a simple game. For all the various reasons you point out - and you haven't thrown it that in became too predictable and increasingly easier for teams to read us - the upshot is that it hasn't worked because we haven't been promoted.

Whether that's by design (not having the right cover, not having enough of the right kind of player, [players not being good enough to work it effectively) or misfortune (injury) is immaterial, as it calling it a shape or a system or a style or a tactic. Whatever name you give it, the outcome has been the same.

My biggest issue with it is that we can only play that particular way with Martin as the fulcrum of the team, and that is now a busted flush because everyone knows about it and increasingly teams can defend against it. You say he was less effective because he was asked to work the channels, but he was also being marked/played out of games far more. 

We have to evolve. And just to underline, that doesn't mean that Martin can't have a big part to play. 

[irobinson]

On 31 July 2016 at 14:14, Robbie Ram said:

Kevin Hector springs to mind in terms of actually buying potential.

Just the trifling matter of the price difference. £40,000 versus £12 million.

Big gulp.

My, how times have changed.

But then Andre Gray got Burnley promoted for sure, when combined with a strong defence. And right now, that's £8 million really well spent by the usually stingy Ginger One.

Andre Gray bagged a hat trick yesterday.....

 

2 hours ago, Harrowram said:

Are we realistically going to sign Kodjia or watch and wait while Brighton spend £8 million on Pritchard?

And Villa just had a bid accepted on McCormack - 11 mil

[Robbie Ram]

4 hours ago, irobinson said:

Andre Gray bagged a hat trick yesterday.....

 

And Villa just had a bid accepted on McCormack - 11 mil

Our man's about six years younger than RM, as well as currently just about as prolific.

So an extra million might be good business after all.

[Nuwtfly]

1 hour ago, Robbie Ram said:

Our man's about six years younger than RM, as well as currently just about as prolific.

So an extra million might be good business after all.

Agreed - our promotion rivals are investing. Let's match them and bring in Kodjia! Even if it is around the £10m mark! 

[hintonsboots]

3 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Agreed - our promotion rivals are investing. Let's match them and bring in Kodjia! Even if it is around the £10m mark! 

I reckon Pearson will use Andi Weimann in the Vardy role, with Ince in the Mahrez role, Will in the Cambiaso role and Shackell and Keogh appearing as Morgan and Huth......... Sorted.

[SaintRam]

1 minute ago, hintonsboots said:

I reckon Pearson will use Andi Weimann in the Vardy role, with Ince in the Mahrez role, Will in the Cambiaso role and Shackell and Keogh appearing as Morgan and Huth......... Sorted.

Pretty sure you're not allowed to do that sort of thing any more?

[hintonsboots]

2 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

Pretty sure you're not allowed to do that sort of thing any more?

What a trading standards offence............ Keogh masquerading as a centre back.?

[Robbie Ram]

23 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Agreed - our promotion rivals are investing. Let's match them and bring in Kodjia! Even if it is around the £10m mark! 

Quite rightly.

[Robbie Ram]

15 minutes ago, hintonsboots said:

I reckon Pearson will use Andi Weimann in the Vardy role, with Ince in the Mahrez role, Will in the Cambiaso role and Shackell and Keogh appearing as Morgan and Huth......... Sorted.

Good post....

But not sure about Keogh though TBH.

Now there is a Batman who really does think he's Superman.

Eh, Sharon.

You too, sonny boy?

COYR !!!!