Missing: Chris Martin and Tom Ince

[mumblemumble]

On 5/14/2016 at 14:51, McLovin said:

If you find them please let me know. In all seriousness I can count how many times both have played well in big games between them. Especially Martin! Both go missing when we need them both. Martin was absolutely useless today. He should be ashamed to wear our shirt. I get that players have off days but at least do something instead of moping around and feeling sorry for yourself blaming your teammates. We should stop building our team around Martin, lets be honest any of us lot on this forum would do well in  this team if it was built to suit our game. Instead we should build our team around those who want to win and dont go hiding like Will Hughes.

Oh and by the way, don't EVER underestimate a team again especially in the play offs. Just because we thrashed them in the league didn't mean we would thrash them again. The way some people played down Hull before the game was a joke.  I'd rather not talk about Wassall. I just hope he has the shame to resign. Rant over. Good to get off my chest

You really don't understand football do you?

Martin was our only striker, he was being marked by their CBs Michael Dawson & Curtis Davies. He also had Tom Huddlestone & Jake Livermore nearby in CM. Wassalls tactics were effectively hoofball to Martin. Did you expect him to win every ball or something with 4 colossal opposition players near him?

Martin has scored 15 this season and assisted 10.

As for Ince who you've put in the title but not even mentioned in your post, his whoscored.com match rating was the second best. Only Hughes beat him.

[hintonsboots]

Ince needs to up the pace when going forwards, the quickest he moved was when making a tackle in our own box.

Also what does the 2 hands in the air signal mean at corners, Is it a sign to the first defender ?

[jimbobram]

5 minutes ago, hintonsboots said:

Ince needs to up the pace when going forwards, the quickest he moved was when making a tackle in our own box.

Also what does the 2 hands in the air signal mean at corners, Is it a sign to the first defender ?

That happens too many times. Corner deliveries should not be that much of a problem for pro footballers. It's not just ince it seems to be everyone who takes them for us (bar camara funnily enough).  

[Dethorn]

On 14/05/2016 at 15:03, McLovin said:

Not just this game though. The only game where I think of Martin playing well in a big game was Brighton in 13/14. He has been awful in the games that we need him. Thinking of both games against Boro, Burnley amd the play off final in particular, becoming a regular habit. Put any decent centre back on him and he is awful.

I have been concerned about this for a long time.

Even though we bossed QPR in that game two experienced CB's Dunne and Onhura had him in his pocket. I am a Martin fan but I think we rely too much on him.

If he is on top of a CB he can be awesome, if not we tend to be screwed.

Maybe a plan B is take off Martin and a midfielder and put on Weiman and Bent together !!

[knabby crackers]

On ‎14‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 15:01, davenportram said:

that was the only time I saw him or heard his name mentioned

Should have gone to Specsavers.

[rynny]

12 minutes ago, jimbobram said:

That happens too many times. Corner deliveries should not be that much of a problem for pro footballers. It's not just ince it seems to be everyone who takes them for us (bar camara funnily enough).  

Didn't Camara's first 2 corners for us hit the side netting? 

[rynny]

42 minutes ago, mumblemumble said:

You really don't understand football do you?

Martin was our only striker, he was being marked by their CBs Michael Dawson & Curtis Davies. He also had Tom Huddlestone & Jake Livermore nearby in CM. Wassalls tactics were effectively hoofball to Martin. Did you expect him to win every ball or something with 4 colossal opposition players near him?

Martin has scored 15 this season and assisted 10.

As for Ince who you've put in the title but not even mentioned in your post, his whoscored.com match rating was the second best. Only Hughes beat him.

Well some fans have irrational dislike towards certain players in our team no matter how they perform 

[Lokidoki]

3 hours ago, mumblemumble said:

You really don't understand football do you?

McLovin is a fellow supporter with a point of view. We've known for the last two and a half seasons how to stop Derby and what happens when you hang men off Martin, however you can use it your advantage because effectively two or three men marking one player should free up space elsewhere. Except the so called coaches that should know football, who get paid to be scrutinised can't figure how to manage that in real time. The major problem with the Hull match is that they also snuffed out Russell and Ince and the midfield was not balanced in set up to capitalise. I would have loved to have seen the minor tweak of swopping Johnson and Hughes around and pulling Martin closer to the midfield to take the knocks but get Bryson and Hughes free. It would have addressed the Russell and Ince problem as they would've had someone to play to.

[Sexydadbod]

1 hour ago, mumblemumble said:

You really don't understand football do you?

Martin was our only striker, he was being marked by their CBs Michael Dawson & Curtis Davies. He also had Tom Huddlestone & Jake Livermore nearby in CM. Wassalls tactics were effectively hoofball to Martin. Did you expect him to win every ball or something with 4 colossal opposition players near him?

Martin has scored 15 this season and assisted 10.

As for Ince who you've put in the title but not even mentioned in your post, his whoscored.com match rating was the second best. Only Hughes beat him.

It's not my fault that Martin is not a very bright footballer then. It's common sense, if you're marked, move into space that is available rather than moping. They wouldn't of had to resort to hoofing if Martin had moved into space that was available rather than being a statue up front. What's Martin's excuse for not performing against the other big teams in the league this season? As Alpha said , the number 10 position was available all game so why not move into that position. It's not just a 1 off game either, it happens every time with Martin when we play against a big team, it's becoming a bit of a joke. Put any half decent striker in this league in this team and they'd get the same stats. Martin simply does not scare defenders like say an Andre Gray or Ross Mccormack does. Even worse is that our whole team is set up to suit Martin so if he doesn't not perform, the rest of the team does not know what to do.

[rynny]

3 minutes ago, McLovin said:

It's not my fault that Martin is not a very bright footballer then. It's common sense, if you're marked, move into space that is available rather than moping. They wouldn't of had to resort to hoofing if Martin had moved into space that was available rather than being a statue up front. What's Martin's excuse for not performing against the other big teams in the league this season? As Alpha said , the number 10 position was available all game so why not move into that position. It's not just a 1 off game either, it happens every time with Martin when we play against a big team, it's becoming a bit of a joke. Put any half decent striker in this league in this team and they'd get the same stats. Martin simply does not scare defenders like say an Andre Gray or Ross Mccormack does. Even worse is that our whole team is set up to suit Martin so if we doesn't not perform, the rest of the team does not know what to do.

So what you are saying is that Dawson and Davies would not have followed him?

Martin's stats against the other top 8 teams this season? Played 14 Scored 3 Assisted 4 so a goal in every other game against the top 8 have been direct from Martin's contribution against them even though he has been so poor.

Any half decent striker would have good stats for this team? Remind me how Sammon got on?

Martin doesn't scare defenders? So why does he have 2 players marking him almost every game? Can't be because he is good as scares teams?

[Sexydadbod]

1 minute ago, rynny said:

So what you are saying is that Dawson and Davies would not have followed him?

Martin's stats against the other top 8 teams this season? Played 14 Scored 3 Assisted 4 so a goal in every other game against the top 8 have been direct from Martin's contribution against them even though he has been so poor.

Any half decent striker would have good stats for this team? Remind me how Sammon got on?

Martin doesn't scare defenders? So why does he have 2 players marking him almost every game? Can't be because he is good as scares teams?

Sammon is not a half decent striker and he played in an inferior team as well as not having the whole team built around him. We all knew that Sammon was not the most talented but his work rate was second to none, can't say the same about Martin.Martin struggles against any decent centre back in this division. Been saying that since we played Leeds and Bamba bullied him for the whole game.

[rynny]

3 minutes ago, McLovin said:

Sammon is not a half decent striker and he played in an inferior team as well as not having the whole team built around him. We all knew that Sammon was not the most talented but his work rate was second to none, can't say the same about Martin.Martin struggles against any decent centre back in this division. Been saying that since we played Leeds and Bamba bullied him for the whole game.

Sammon's work rate got him out of position so when the ball was played to where he needed to be, up front, he was normally covering the right back. Martin doesn't have the same stamina as Sammon, that's just the way it is, so why would we want him to chase balls that aren't there to be won? All it will do is tire him out so when it comes to him actually needing to put the effort in he won't have the stamina left. He picks and chooses when to chase and close down. Is that not intelligence? The teams built around him so we can play to his strengths, what would be the point of hitting the channels and hoping Martin can run onto them? You should build your team around your striker, as he is the one who is going to score or assist the majority of the teams goals. So how has Martin scored so many goals for us? How has got so many assists? If he struggles so much and does not work hard enough?

[jimbobram]

1 hour ago, rynny said:

Didn't Camara's first 2 corners for us hit the side netting? 

I think the majority of his corners were fizzed in and caused problems, just no one on the end of them 

[hintonsboots]

1 hour ago, Lokidoki said:

Patronising ars3hole. McLovin is a fellow supporter with a point of view. We've known for the last two and a half seasons how to stop Derby and what happens when you hang men off Martin, however you can use it your advantage because effectively two or three men marking one player should free up space elsewhere. Except the so called coaches that should know football, who get paid to be scrutinised can't figure how to manage that in real time. The major problem with the Hull match is that they also snuffed out Russell and Ince and the midfield was not balanced in set up to capitalise. I would have loved to have seen the minor tweak of swopping Johnson and Hughes around and pulling Martin closer to the midfield to take the knocks but get Bryson and Hughes free. It would have addressed the Russell and Ince problem as they would've had someone to play to.

Great post. You could see from potato heads post match interview that Ince and Russell were considered to be our" good players" , so he stopped them playing , end of story. That combined with Hughes wasted in deep midfield meant we were toothless.

P.S If we ever get him as manager i will refer to him as Steve.

[Lokidoki]

37 minutes ago, rynny said:

So how has Martin scored so many goals for us?

That is easy. When teams play open and don't close him down it gives him chance to play the flicks, and move up and down the central  forward area - even to the point that you see him pick up the ball just outside the centre circle. The problem is the championship has got highly technical, especially in the video analysis of how teams play generally and at looking how  to restrict opposition play.

When Martin plays and the opposition try to stifle him, we are a one trick pony unless the coach can alter the balance to take advantage of this restriction of Martin. When this happens you cannot expect Martin to score and are reliant of the channels and midfield contributing, and to demonstrate that look at most of the Johnson/Butterfield/Hendrick goals. It appears that a lot of the time the coaching staff fail to correct this tactic so Martin looks very poor. My sentiments are that as a player he would  be better if he controlled his body language  as he must give the opponents a lift when they see the other side having tantrums.  It also irks me as a supporter as his antics tend to wear thin over time.

[mumblemumble]

1 hour ago, Lokidoki said:

Patronising ars3hole. McLovin is a fellow supporter with a point of view. We've known for the last two and a half seasons how to stop Derby and what happens when you hang men off Martin, however you can use it your advantage because effectively two or three men marking one player should free up space elsewhere. Except the so called coaches that should know football, who get paid to be scrutinised can't figure how to manage that in real time. The major problem with the Hull match is that they also snuffed out Russell and Ince and the midfield was not balanced in set up to capitalise. I would have loved to have seen the minor tweak of swopping Johnson and Hughes around and pulling Martin closer to the midfield to take the knocks but get Bryson and Hughes free. It would have addressed the Russell and Ince problem as they would've had someone to play to.

I've had a lot worse, you should read the thread I made about Keogh - I never cried about it and I don't think McLovin will either.

Yeah that's a good plan, play without a striker. Are you Nigel Clough is disguise?

By the way what the hell is swopping?

[Lokidoki]

2 minutes ago, mumblemumble said:

Yeah that's a good plan, play without a striker.

I always thought that Ince and Russell were purchased  as strikers, if not what else are they doing there.

 

4 minutes ago, mumblemumble said:

By the way what the hell is swopping?

Positionally, we are talking football here. 

[Alph]

I remember McClaren after one game saying that after HT as soon as we understood it was a game to win down the flanks that's exactly what we did.

People have always said we go through Martin. And we always have. 

But that doesn't mean to say we only have one way of using him. Do we not remember Forsyth's awesome low crosses when we actually used to use Martin as a striker. We often used to advance down the flanks and all different style of wing play was our danger. Dawkins coming inside to join the interplay crew. Ward advancing into the box along the actual byline. Ibe dribbling through the channel. Russell doing what him and Ince both do now. Bamford being a more static winger allowing a fullback to do the more traditional work. Christie and Wisdom at their best both had variation in their play. 

Martin often involved in all of it. But sometimes he'd play a traditional striker role more often. If the game forced us to use the flanks when we've always wanted to hit Martin with Forsyth, Thorne, Keogh etc. There was a lot more variation in how we found and where we found him. 

Remember losing at Elland Rd and there was this whole "we've been sussed"

It's true that Leeds did a job on squashing our midfield. Like Hull have. Like many have. But that game was full of opportunities for Russell, Ibe, Cyrus and Forsyth to push on. They were always 2v2 at least when we moved the ball quick. 

....

That's the thing for me. There's no secret way of stopping Derby. They say the same about all good teams when they get beat. "All you have to do is..." Yet that team goes on and wins again and again. 

To play the way we want to play then you just have to firstly move the ball quick. That's why Clement struggled to create because we got bogged down in the Warnock, Shackell, Johnson, Russell half. We were one sided. 

An opponent can't cover the whole pitch. If they're narrow and deep then you're going to have 1v1 and 2v2 situations on the flanks. If they're wide and pressing then you'll have room to play but it has to be quick. 

But Saturday for example there was no variation in the way we went forward. Martin might as well have been a statue. We didn't press on the flanks because we were too scared of them.

Instead we chose to use Martin as a target man and occasionally play through a blocked of center. And then you've got Johnson and Shackell in the same team again. Rubbish passers. 

When we did use the flanks all the crosses were high looping ***** that took 10 mins to come over. Anyone seem many towering headers from Craig Bryson? 

Nothing wrong with the way we want to play. But you can still vary it. 

Do it again tomorrow and we'll get beat again because they're totally prepared for us to play through our strong center. 

I don't know how you mastermind it. That's for a coach. But I know that **** on Saturday didn't look like it

[Animal is a Ram]

Stop talking so much sense @Alpha 

[Alph]

38 minutes ago, Animal is a Ram said:

Stop talking so much sense @Alpha 

Ha! I wouldn't have clue how to move the pieces. But we can all look at a chess board and see who's winning and where