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Newcastle & the derby way

Dubiousmagoo

By Dubiousmagoo
in Derby County Forum

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SaintRam

SaintRam

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, curtains said:

http://www.forest.vitalfootball.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25542

Yeah, think they're taking that off Daily Mail too. Zero evidence. 

Besides, even if he was, released at 12 is a nothing story. He was released, played for Repton, played for Mickleover, then signed by us.

He might have been **** at 12. 

Huddlestone was with them til later. 

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SaintRam

SaintRam

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He certainly at no point had a contract with them if he was that young, so their talk of a payoff is ludicrous. 

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Curtains

Curtains

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Posted
2 hours ago, Dubiousmagoo said:

One of the major areas of criticism, and in fairness there are more than a few, of Newcastle has been based around their transfer policy. The logic behind buying in younger players developing them and then selling them on for a profit makes a lot of business sense. It got me thinking, a lot of what Mel Morris has talked about is the importance of developing players and looking to add value to them. Hence the heavy investment in the facilities at the farm. Are their lessons which need to be learned from Newcastle? Really how many Will Hughes are we able to help nurture. If we get promoted when are we going to give these guys coming through the academy chances to play in the first team. The premier league by its very nature is quintessentially short termist. I think the derby way only works if we stay as a championship team who win more games than then lose. Perhaps not such a bad thing?  

 Think Paul Clement recognised this to be fair. 

He got criticised for being short termism but I for one liked what he did at Derby.

He got Carson and Shackell and Butterfield and Johnson and Olsson into the club and all would be ok in the Premier League. 

Its a massive problem introducing academy players to the first team especially in the Premier League 

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bcnram

bcnram

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He was with the Forest academy then changed to Derby's when he was early teens. At 15 I watched him play in the ISFA final for Repton against Brentwood, and although Brentwood won the game, they just couldn't get the ball off Will. One of the first things that Nigel did was to sack the local scout after he told Nigel that there was no talent locally (Will was already at Derby then).

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EnigmaRam

EnigmaRam

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Posted

Plenty of scouts down the racecourse and at tournaments in the area. He could have been at both academies at the same time as long as he wasn't signed. Could also have been at both at same time as well as jubilee. They generally tie them to contracts around U9 age group. Not to mention all the development centres clubs have

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Curtains

Curtains

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Posted
2 minutes ago, EnigmaRam said:

Plenty of scouts down the racecourse and at tournaments in the area. He could have been at both academies at the same time as long as he wasn't signed. Could also have been at both at same time as well as jubilee. They generally tie them to contracts around U9 age group. Not to mention all the development centres clubs have

Derby , Forest, Leicester etc etc all competing for good players. 

Derby did well to get Will Hughes and as an Academy 1 status we will still compete I hope. 

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ramsbottom

ramsbottom

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2 hours ago, Dubiousmagoo said:

One of the major areas of criticism, and in fairness there are more than a few, of Newcastle has been based around their transfer policy. The logic behind buying in younger players developing them and then selling them on for a profit makes a lot of business sense. It got me thinking, a lot of what Mel Morris has talked about is the importance of developing players and looking to add value to them. Hence the heavy investment in the facilities at the farm. Are their lessons which need to be learned from Newcastle? Really how many Will Hughes are we able to help nurture. If we get promoted when are we going to give these guys coming through the academy chances to play in the first team. The premier league by its very nature is quintessentially short termist. I think the derby way only works if we stay as a championship team who win more games than then lose. Perhaps not such a bad thing?  

Once you look at both clubs policies you soon notice the differences.  Newcastle attempt to buy cheap ready made talent that can go straight into their first team.  Such as spunking £10 odd million on Mitrovic in the hope he performs in the most competitive league in the world, so in two years you can sell him for £30m.  They got lucky with Cabye and have been trying to replicate that profit ever since...

Mel wants us to cultivate our own youth players that can move through the ranks, into the first team.  If they eventually move on, it will hopefully be for a good fee.  The cost of doing so is comparatively low compared to what the Geordies always try to do.  

This is one of the reasons why I hope Waffall doesn't get the manager's job full time is that he's shown him and his scouting team have a good eye for talent.  

As for 1st team transfers, it's going to be incredibly important to decide who'll be responsible for transfers, whether it's the manager/1st team coach or a new director of football/cheif scout/head of football operations whoever.  I'd rather trust the manager cus if you look at any well known DoF they have a rather spotty record.

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JW37

JW37

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If you want to see how good it can be and how well it can work look at Southampton. Get your finances, youth system, scouting and coaching right.

Newcastle:

  • Bad youth system
  • Bad scouting
  • Bad coaching
  • Good finances

Derby:

  • Good youth system
  • Bad scouting
  • Unknown coaching
  • Good finances

Southampton:

  • Good youth system
  • Good scouting
  • Good coaching
  • Good finances

Staying in the Premier League is the most important thing firstly but then building on that survival. They stayed up and sacked Adkins, moved on and appointed Pochettino, lost him and appointed Koeman. Pochettino and Koeman were both the right fit because they shared the vision of developing youth and not just being content on survival.

They've developed and moved on the likes of Lambert, Lallana, Schniederlin, Clyne, Lovren, Cork but time and time again they have excellent scouting to replace these players on the cheap(in comparison to English league prices)

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Anon

Anon

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It will be interesting to see if Southampton's youth production line continues to flow. Don't forget that they sacked the guys responsible for overseeing the development of almost all their good youngsters, Jason Dodd and Paul Williams, in one of their culls the other year.

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Curtains

Curtains

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How many players should Derby Academy have playing in the first team each season .

1 or 2 or 3 .

How many do we sell on .

How many Will Hughes for every Callum Ball 

How many for  Derbys and any other Academies to be profitable each year. 

Southampton keeps getting quoted but who else does it ! 

Its a big conundrum IMO 

1 a year from the Academy would be good but we hardly do that .

Hanson is one this season  but could he do it in the Premier League ? 

Even Darren hasn't introduced many into the first team since Clement was sacked  

 

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SaintRam

SaintRam

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Posted
12 minutes ago, curtains said:

How many players should Derby Academy have playing in the first team each season .

1 or 2 or 3 .

How many do we sell on .

How many Will Hughes for every Callum Ball 

How many for  Derbys and any other Academies to be profitable each year. 

Southampton keeps getting quoted but who else does it ! 

Its a big conundrum IMO 

1 a year from the Academy would be good but we hardly do that .

Hanson is one this season  but could he do it in the Premier League ? 

Even Darren hasn't introduced many into the first team since Clement was sacked  

 

He's had a few months with a hugely bloated senior squad - and he's still managed to introduce a couple. Think he absolutely has a mind to do more in the future.

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Anon

Anon

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12 minutes ago, curtains said:

How many players should Derby Academy have playing in the first team each season .

1 or 2 or 3 .

How many do we sell on .

How many Will Hughes for every Callum Ball 

How many for  Derbys and any other Academies to be profitable each year. 

Southampton keeps getting quoted but who else does it ! 

Its a big conundrum IMO 

1 a year from the Academy would be good but we hardly do that .

Hanson is one this season  but could he do it in the Premier League ? 

Even Darren hasn't introduced many into the first team since Clement was sacked  

 

Where do you think footballers come from? They don't just materialise from the ether at 23. There are plenty of teams in the premiership that have strong academies and develop young talent. You only have to look at the teams currently sat 2nd and 3rd to see the benefits of this.

You ask if it's profitable, let me give you an example from closer to home. Hendrick and Hughes have played for several seasons together in our midfield. It cost us 10 million pounds at the start of the season to buy two midfielders of similar quality. Now, I know tuition at Repton is expensive, but it probably cost us less that a fifth of that to bring Hendrick, Hughes and all the other scholars in their year group through.

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Curtains

Curtains

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Posted
22 minutes ago, Anon said:

Where do you think footballers come from? They don't just materialise from the ether at 23. There are plenty of teams in the premiership that have strong academies and develop young talent. You only have to look at the teams currently sat 2nd and 3rd to see the benefits of this.

You ask if it's profitable, let me give you an example from closer to home. Hendrick and Hughes have played for several seasons together in our midfield. It cost us 10 million pounds at the start of the season to buy two midfielders of similar quality. Now, I know tuition at Repton is expensive, but it probably cost us less that a fifth of that to bring Hendrick, Hughes and all the other scholars in their year group through.

Paul Jewell snapped up Hendrick from Ireland.  He was already a great prospect before he arrived. 

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Curtains

Curtains

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39 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

He's had a few months with a hugely bloated senior squad - and he's still managed to introduce a couple. Think he absolutely has a mind to do more in the future.

I expect to see 3 or 4 in the first team next season then or the season after.  I await the outcome. 

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Carl Sagan

Carl Sagan

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Posted

Academy products in the "matchday" squad this season:

  • Grant
  • Hughes
  • Hendrick
  • Hanson
  • Guy (not yet got on)
  • Elsnick (not yet got on)
  • Mitchell

I don't think Rawson/Bennett/Calero have this year but may be mistaken. Lowe would have been in the team if it weren't for his injury.

Think @curtainsis mistaken about Will and this is a myth pedalled by the gumps. Of course he will have checked out the gumps academy at one point and so may have played a couple of games for them,  but I'm pretty sure he's denied being formally attached. And he joined us aged 12.

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