Billy Davies "can't wait" for Billy Davies to return to football management

[Mostyn6]

1 minute ago, bigbadbob said:

It wasn't TOP FLIGHT history only I'm afraid

yes it was. There were 72 league clubs finished below us that season. 

[bigbadbob]

24 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

yes it was. There were 72 league clubs finished below us that season. 

My apologies. When you mentioned the word history I didn't realise you meant in the history of that season only

[Mostyn6]

1 minute ago, bigbadbob said:

My apologies. When you mentioned the word history I didn't realise you meant in the history of that season only

my point, as facetious as it is, is that technically Derby are the worst team in the history of the top flight. The worst team in history is surely the team that finished 92nd with the worst points tally of all those in history that finished 92nd.

[bigbadbob]

9 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

my point, as facetious as it is, is that technically Derby are the worst team in the history of the top flight. The worst team in history is surely the team that finished 92nd with the worst points tally of all those in history that finished 92nd.

Ah right. It's just that you were responding to that Albert fella when he said worst season in English professional football. He didn't mention team or worst team in history. Only you did I think.

[Inglorius]

13 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

my point, as facetious as it is, is that technically Derby are the worst team in the history of the top flight. The worst team in history is surely the team that finished 92nd with the worst points tally of all those in history that finished 92nd.

I believed that our 11 point haul was the lowest by any team playing in their respective division but I will bow to superior knowledge 

[Mostyn6]

2 minutes ago, Inglorius said:

I believed that our 11 point haul was the lowest by any team playing in their respective division but I will bow to superior knowledge 

I think it is. But it was still top flight, so in the pyramid there are 72 lesser teams.

[Inglorius]

1 minute ago, Mostyn6 said:

I think it is. But it was still top flight, so in the pyramid there are 72 lesser teams.

Yes so we are both agreed that Billy Davies oversaw an absolutely calamitous campaign then ?

[Mostyn6]

5 minutes ago, Inglorius said:

Yes so we are both agreed that Billy Davies oversaw an absolutely calamitous campaign then ?

I agree he partially oversaw it, but to say he created it is unfair. AS I say, no manager, in my opinion, could have done better, and in my opinion, Billy's part was better than Jewell's part.

Ask yourself this, 3 years later, Nigel Clough's team contained Bywater, McEveley, Leacock, Pearson and Teale. Almost half a team, of Billy players, ALL extended contracts under Nigel. IN between that, Jewell signed 23 players (2008), how many of those did Nigel extend? Only Savage if memory serves.

So, do you think Billy is worse than Jewell?

[Inglorius]

3 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

I agree he partially oversaw it, but to say he created it is unfair. AS I say, no manager, in my opinion, could have done better, and in my opinion, Billy's part was better than Jewell's part.

Ask yourself this, 3 years later, Nigel Clough's team contained Bywater, McEveley, Leacock, Pearson and Teale. Almost half a team, of Billy players, ALL extended contracts under Nigel. IN between that, Jewell signed 23 players (2008), how many of those did Nigel extend? Only Savage if memory serves.

So, do you think Billy is worse than Jewell?

Don't get me started about Nigel Clough as well......

[bigbadbob]

12 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

I think it is. But it was still top flight, so in the pyramid there are 72 lesser teams.

You're right it is. And that was what Albert was saying. He didn't say anything about worst team in history

[Albert]

5 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

there's not a manager alive who could inherit a squad that Billy did, get promoted on the budget Billy had and then survive in the PL with the budget he had. No argument to be had.

also @Albert (forgive me if I am wrong) but Billy took over a team that finished 20th the previous season, not in the top six as I think you said.

I never said they finished in the top 6, you have probably misread something. We had finished in the top 6 the season prior to that though. 

Davies was the first manager in a while to have any real money to spend with us, strengthened a squad that had a disappointing season, not one that spend years at the bottom end of the table. 

The claim that no manager could manager that is utterly and totally bizarre, and I can only assume that you are either trolling, or completely and totally off your rocker. 

For the record though, there are plenty of managers who on a poorer budget, with a poorer squad, who have managed promotion. There exist no managers that have taken a side up to the top division in England and done worse. 

[Albert]

5 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

yes it was. There were 72 league clubs finished below us that season. 

So you're so plumb out of arguments that you're down to claiming that there were teams in divisions below us? 

It was, to my knowledge, the worst performance in a league by any professional club in England, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it's the worst by any fully professional club. 

4 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

my point, as facetious as it is, is that technically Derby are the worst team in the history of the top flight. The worst team in history is surely the team that finished 92nd with the worst points tally of all those in history that finished 92nd.

I don't think you actually read, or at the least understood, what I said. 

For the record, I think the side Billy put together that season would have had a crack at 92nd if you gave them the chance. 

4 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

I think it is. But it was still top flight, so in the pyramid there are 72 lesser teams.

Also, if you're going for this route it's probably worth noting that there are actually more than 92 professional clubs in England, it's just that there are only 92 clubs in a fully professional division. Clubs can be professional in the non-leagues, it's just not required. The point is, and I'll reiterate this because you have appeared to have issues comprehending it, that their performing that season was the worst league performance by a professional club in England to my knowledge. That performance may only be against teams in their division, but for a side to be promoted, spend a reasonable amount, and perform that badly is something truly special. Billy managed to achieve the platinum standard in failure that season.  

4 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

I agree he partially oversaw it, but to say he created it is unfair. AS I say, no manager, in my opinion, could have done better, and in my opinion, Billy's part was better than Jewell's part.

Ask yourself this, 3 years later, Nigel Clough's team contained Bywater, McEveley, Leacock, Pearson and Teale. Almost half a team, of Billy players, ALL extended contracts under Nigel. IN between that, Jewell signed 23 players (2008), how many of those did Nigel extend? Only Savage if memory serves.

So, do you think Billy is worse than Jewell?

Are, are you being serious? 

Nigel extended the contracts of Green, Davies and Savage. He also wanted to extend the deal of Commons, and Hulse was in high demand. I think the better question is how many of the players out of that went on to actually go for money, and how many of the players you'd have now. For the record, Jewell only made around 17 permanent signings, i.e. ones you could extend the contract of, and much the issue there was to do with who'd actually come to a club that was in effect relegated in January. That all said, the spaghetti to the wall transfer policy that was made after was a disaster, though I'd argue it was no worse than Billy's efforts on the market after that first summer. 

To my knowledge Jewell didn't actually want to come until the end of the season, but they convinced him to anyhow. Was he worse than Billy that season? Well, he didn't manage a win, but he did inherit a club already done for, and had to somehow get something out of it. 

You can actually break the season up into 3 pretty distinct sections for a good comparison of their performance though:

Billy's failure:

- 14 matches, 6 points, 5 goals, 33 conceded

- Beaten by 4+ goals on 4 occasions (including 5-0 against West Ham at home)

Jewell until relegation confirmed:

- 18 matches, 5 points, 11 goals, 34 conceded

- Beaten by 4+ goals once

Jewell after relegation confirmed:

 - 6 games, 0 points, 4 goals and 22 conceded

 - Beaten by 4+ goals 3 times

What's pretty telling is the number of times we got completely demolished, and the shear lack of goals in that opening stage of the season under Billy. He demolished the squad and it's confidence, but went into the season with it at it's strongest, arguably for the entire season. The side suffered a disastrous run of injuries under Jewell, to the point we essentially ran out of centrehalves at one point. 

The most telling part though is that whilst there was nothing telling in Jewell's time, we were, until relegation, at least more solid, and not being beaten by 4+ goals so regularly. Even including the post relegation phase where the side had no fight left, it took Jewell until the final day of the season to match Billy's total of 4 thrashing that he managed with a fresh squad, one that should be buoyed by promotion, in the first 14 matches. 

Personally, I think Jewell was very poor as well, I think he handled the situation poorly, and I think he was overall quite damaging for the club as well, particularly his spending when we came down, which like Billy's, only yielded a handful of useful players from masses of spending. This all said, he was not the architect, and as demonstrated above he actually got more fight out of Billy's team, though that's not saying much. From the position we were in though, a better manager may have been able to save the side, but the mental damage was well and truly done by Billy's spell. 

The real trouble that season was that we needed something from December, where the gap started as only 4 points to safety, but ultimately by New Years Day it was 10 points and the situation had compounded. Had we picked up another win or two in December, and the injuries that occurred didn't, you never quite know what could have happened. The problem though was once that all happened, no one wanted to touch the club, and it showed with our transfer dealings. 

7 hours ago, MuespachRam said:

All good statistics, thanks for researching them, but it doesn't reflect anywhere what the squad was like before he spent the money, without looking I would be sure that all the teams you mention all had better squads than Derby when they got promoted.

He worked absolute miracles to get that squad to top division....

People keep calling it a miracle to get into the top division, when sides with worse squads, spending less have done it time and time again. Us coming 20th the previous season made it look worse than it was, we were a top 6 side prior to that, and Billy actually had money to spend, and was the first manager to have such a luxury in a while. 

The true miracle with Billy was taking a side he got promoted and setting them up for such spectacular failure, one that will be spoken about for a long time. 

[EssendonRam]

On 10 March 2016 at 08:37, Inglorius said:

It is almost two years since Billy Davies lost his job at Nottingham Forest and became a former manager.

It scarcely seems believable that a man of his passion, intensity, ambition and sheer force of personality could have tolerated such an absence from the game.

"There are many reasons for staying out as long," Davies says, and he is too forthright to succumb to vagueness. He has earned well during his managerial career, so there is no financial imperative. His sons have been growing up, and both are now at university, while he has felt it important to spend time with his parents at this stage in their lives.

All of that, though, is enabled by Davies' success in management. He can reel off the stats and achievements, but they are worth dwelling on. Whenever he has managed a side in the English Championship for a full season, Davies has never failed to at least steer them into the play-offs.


Quickfire - Billy Davies
In the same league, he has never failed to reach the 79-point mark, and nobody has won more manager of the month awards in the Championship. He broke long-standing club records at Nottingham Forest, Derby and Preston, the three sides he has managed in England.

Yet it has been two years. There was also a 13-month spell out of the game after leaving Derby, despite having led the club to promotion to the Premiership in the first year of a three-year plan.

'Whispering campaign'

Davies has an answer. He believes that a "whispering campaign" has been conducted against him, resulting in the portrayal of him as a difficult man to manage, one constantly at odds with directors and the media, as a manager who ignores young players.

"This is a results-driven industry," Davies says. "All I want people to do is look at the success of each club we've been at, look at the results, focus on player relationship, on staff relationship, on economics from when we took over to when we left.

"If he is such a difficult man to please and such a hard man to get on with, why does he get this success, why does he have such good relationships with players, why do his teams win, why is his record so good?"

By his own admission, spending two spells at Nottingham Forest and one at Derby - two clubs 14 miles apart and caught up in a fierce rivalry - has impacted on his career.

"The first time that I spoke to Nigel Doughty [the previous Forest owner], it was clear that Mr X preferred another option [as manager]," Davies says.

"When I joined Nottingham Forest, Mr X advised me that he will be using certain individuals in the Midlands area to put out information, in the media.


Billy Davies, while manager of Nottingham Forest, jokes with coach Julian Darby and Jonathan Greening
"Very interestingly, it's the same individuals today who still say the same thing."

When Davies first arrived at Forest, the club was in the midst of a relegation battle. He steered them to safety and then to the play-offs the following season.

Davies is fiercely competitive, blunt, unabashed, but just as capable of wit and empathy.

Players talk of his attention to detail, his range of coaching sessions, his tactical awareness. He is demanding, of himself as much as those around him. Ambition compels Davies, he wants to work at the highest level and feels frustrated that he has yet to achieve that on his own terms.

When he won the Premiership play-off with Derby, he knew that the board would sell the club once in the top-flight and had been told that another manager had already been sounded out. In hindsight, Davies would have preferred to have been let go that summer, rather than work for a spell in the Premier League but without the resources he felt were required to stay up.

"The chairman, Peter Gatsby, made it clear to us that was the intent, to get promotion and then sell the club," Davies says. "Peter said to me that I would get what I was due, we are selling, the club is moving in a different direction with different people.

"My disappointment was that I felt the Derby board should have done that in the summer. Looking back, how could they remove me in the summer?

Billy Davies's managerial journey
Motherwell    October 1998 to September 2001
Preston    August 2004 to June 2006
Derby County    June 2006 to November 2007
Nottingham Forest    January 2009 to June 2011 and February 2013 to March 2014
"We'd just got promotion and they had to wait for public perception. I put forward a list of players, you give them four or five names at different levels, and I never handled the negotiations. So they decided to go for a certain level and cost of player."

Davies acknowledges that football managers need to "manage up" with the board and "manage down" with the players. He insists that he had "a great relationship" with Derek Shaw at Preston North End, Gatsby at Derby, Doughty at Forest and in his second spell at the City Ground, Fawaz Al Hasawi, who Davies remains in contact with.

He has spoken to clubs in England and Scotland about recent managerial vacancies. He wants back in to the game, at a club that shares his ambition, and he wants to right some perceived wrongs.

"I am a much better manager than I was," Davies says. "None of us are perfect. But don't you dare believe that I've got no desire to get back into the game. I'm ready to achieve greater, to achieve better, with more desire and more ambition. I can't wait to get back in."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35780942

Will someone just appoint him ??? (No...Mel...sit down...NOW!)

I mean: how humiliating can it get? After the trail of destruction he's wreaked everywhere he's been, he's been reduced to sourcing his own PR carp...and even has to put his name to it.

Next he'll be doing his own overnight TV commercial..."I'm Crazy Billy and I work cheap. Anywhere. Two faces for the price of one."

It's only a short stumble from that to Billy becoming a homeless old wino, muttering darkly about Mr X into his brown paper bag.

 

And then there's the matter of his parents.

Someone think of them and give Billy a job. (I said...SIT DOWN MEL!!!!!)

I mean...what did they do to deserve Billy spending more and more time with them?

At this stage of their lives? Okay, so they spawned Billy Davies but, surely by now, they've been punished enough?

[EssendonRam]

19 minutes ago, Albert said:

So you're so plumb out of arguments that you're down to claiming that there were teams in divisions below us? 

It was, to my knowledge, the worst performance in a league by any professional club in England, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it's the worst by any fully professional club. 

I don't think you actually read, or at the least understood, what I said. 

For the record, I think the side Billy put together that season would have had a crack at 92nd if you gave them the chance. 

Also, if you're going for this route it's probably worth noting that there are actually more than 92 professional clubs in England, it's just that there are only 92 clubs in a fully professional division. Clubs can be professional in the non-leagues, it's just not required. The point is, and I'll reiterate this because you have appeared to have issues comprehending it, that their performing that season was the worst league performance by a professional club in England to my knowledge. That performance may only be against teams in their division, but for a side to be promoted, spend a reasonable amount, and perform that badly is something truly special. Billy managed to achieve the platinum standard in failure that season.  

Are, are you being serious? 

Nigel extended the contracts of Green, Davies and Savage. He also wanted to extend the deal of Commons, and Hulse was in high demand. I think the better question is how many of the players out of that went on to actually go for money, and how many of the players you'd have now. For the record, Jewell only made around 17 permanent signings, i.e. ones you could extend the contract of, and much the issue there was to do with who'd actually come to a club that was in effect relegated in January. That all said, the spaghetti to the wall transfer policy that was made after was a disaster, though I'd argue it was no worse than Billy's efforts on the market after that first summer. 

To my knowledge Jewell didn't actually want to come until the end of the season, but they convinced him to anyhow. Was he worse than Billy that season? Well, he didn't manage a win, but he did inherit a club already done for, and had to somehow get something out of it. 

You can actually break the season up into 3 pretty distinct sections for a good comparison of their performance though:

Billy's failure:

- 14 matches, 6 points, 5 goals, 33 conceded

- Beaten by 4+ goals on 4 occasions (including 5-0 against West Ham at home)

Jewell until relegation confirmed:

- 18 matches, 5 points, 11 goals, 34 conceded

- Beaten by 4+ goals once

Jewell after relegation confirmed:

 - 6 games, 0 points, 4 goals and 22 conceded

 - Beaten by 4+ goals 3 times

What's pretty telling is the number of times we got completely demolished, and the shear lack of goals in that opening stage of the season under Billy. He demolished the squad and it's confidence, but went into the season with it at it's strongest, arguably for the entire season. The side suffered a disastrous run of injuries under Jewell, to the point we essentially ran out of centrehalves at one point. 

The most telling part though is that whilst there was nothing telling in Jewell's time, we were, until relegation, at least more solid, and not being beaten by 4+ goals so regularly. Even including the post relegation phase where the side had no fight left, it took Jewell until the final day of the season to match Billy's total of 4 thrashing that he managed with a fresh squad, one that should be buoyed by promotion, in the first 14 matches. 

Personally, I think Jewell was very poor as well, I think he handled the situation poorly, and I think he was overall quite damaging for the club as well, particularly his spending when we came down, which like Billy's, only yielded a handful of useful players from masses of spending. This all said, he was not the architect, and as demonstrated above he actually got more fight out of Billy's team, though that's not saying much. From the position we were in though, a better manager may have been able to save the side, but the mental damage was well and truly done by Billy's spell. 

The real trouble that season was that we needed something from December, where the gap started as only 4 points to safety, but ultimately by New Years Day it was 10 points and the situation had compounded. Had we picked up another win or two in December, and the injuries that occurred didn't, you never quite know what could have happened. The problem though was once that all happened, no one wanted to touch the club, and it showed with our transfer dealings. 

People keep calling it a miracle to get into the top division, when sides with worse squads, spending less have done it time and time again. Us coming 20th the previous season made it look worse than it was, we were a top 6 side prior to that, and Billy actually had money to spend, and was the first manager to have such a luxury in a while. 

The true miracle with Billy was taking a side he got promoted and setting them up for such spectacular failure, one that will be spoken about for a long time. 

 

I don't concur with everything Albert says above but there's no doubt in my mind that his overall point is compelling. And, to be entirely honest, I am a little stunned that there are any Derby fans for whom time has clouded their memories of 2006-7 (in the broader sense; not just season 2006-7).

I would have thought insufficient time had passed. Let's face it: we were still repairing the wreckage just over two seasons ago.

I spent over a month of that season comatose - waking up just in time for the 'O' to fall from the Derby County sign before the West Ham match Albert mentions - but it seems I have a more complete recollection of how abysmally mismanaged that squad was than some.

First of all, Albert is correct about the starting point Billy inherited but, to be fair, it is a double-edged sword. If you argue the squad Billy inherited was not as bad as its immediate past performance indicated (and I agree with Albert on that), you do have to acknowledge he managed to stop the free fall. That's often not an easy job and Billy did manage to turn it around.

That's just about the last concession I'll make in Billy's favour though.

That season Billy did what Billy does; he manages for the short-term with focus on Billy Davies' reputation, for his statistical record. He builds his squads with Championship level (journeymen) players; his approach is to target a playoff place and his 'stodgy' game style is solidly risk averse consistent with his player recruitment.

It all sounds so reasonable. I must admit that I, at the time, was just grateful that we were competing for the playoffs again and completely misread the absence of any investment, any potential growth, in the future. As supporters do.

So Billy adds further depth of journeymen players who'd found their level at Championship level, to an underperforming squad. He pays a decent premium for it too - since most clubs prefer at least not to be in relegation struggles - and signs them long-term too, thereby essentially bringing forward future seasons' squad investment into the current season.

Yes, it targeted immediate improvement. Tick.

Yes, it made it us possible promotion contenders if everything went right. Tick.

Come January, promotion was looking a likely prospect so the Board loosened the purse strings a little. And Billy spent it on more players who'd found their level...in the Championship....and utterly incapable of ever being Premiership-calibre...Fail.

After we were fortunate to win promotion, after Billy's egotistic walkout threats, after Billy went on holiday, after Billy told everyone what a miracle he'd achieved, he blew the budget on yet more mid-to-upper-Championship level players.

I doubt there's ever been a less talented squad in the Premiership, before or since. 

The rest, as they say....is thank gawd for Newcastle!

That he hasn't changed one iota is reflected in the self-serving interview comments. So the Board chose what level of player to target, did they? They selected Robbie Earnshaw from the middle of the list Billy gave them, did they?

I ask just one question: when have you ever known Billy Davies to be shy about getting his deflections out before?

It took the club five years to extricate itself from Billy's mess. Agree that Paul Jewell shares responsibility - some responsibility - for that mess but most of the mess is directly attributable to Billy.

And Jewell at least boarded a sinking ship to try to save it with his hands tied largely behind his back. Billy Davies tried to provoke his dismissal as early as the day of the Play off Final. Many, I suspect, believe he wanted to avoid the blame for the fiasco but retain the credit for promotion.

 

A win-win as they say. For the only one who ever counts in Billy Davies' career. Billy. Bloody. Davies.

 

Rant over!

[Mostyn6]

Albert, for the record, I'm not saying nobody could have got promoted. I'm saying the following season was inevitable. I'm saying no manager could've kept Derby up. 

[Albert]

1 hour ago, Mostyn6 said:

Albert, for the record, I'm not saying nobody could have got promoted. I'm saying the following season was inevitable. I'm saying no manager could've kept Derby up. 

We were in a better position the end of 2006-07 than many teams that have stayed up. It was never inevitable, especially not with 11 points, the blame has to follow Billy. 

[Boycie]

The harm that Billy did to Derby in my eyes was the remark he made at Wembley regarding him not knowing if he would even be managing Derby next season.

That caused confusion at a time when it should have just been about the club players and the excellent fans.  But no, it had to be about him.

Then apparently he took a 2 week holiday instead of looking for players and preparing. Yes, everyone deserves a holiday but timing is everything when you've just been promoted via the play offs and you're already 2 weeks behind.

as soon as he knew he wanted out and engineered his exit, he really damaged to club.

thats my opinion.

looking at what he did to Forest twice finacially, I can't understand the fascination with him from some people.

id of thought the "with Preston" comment would have been enough for any Rams fan?

[Albert]

1 hour ago, Boycie said:

The harm that Billy did to Derby in my eyes was the remark he made at Wembley regarding him not knowing if he would even be managing Derby next season.

That caused confusion at a time when it should have just been about the club players and the excellent fans.  But no, it had to be about him.

Then apparently he took a 2 week holiday instead of looking for players and preparing. Yes, everyone deserves a holiday but timing is everything when you've just been promoted via the play offs and you're already 2 weeks behind.

as soon as he knew he wanted out and engineered his exit, he really damaged to club.

thats my opinion.

looking at what he did to Forest twice finacially, I can't understand the fascination with him from some people.

id of thought the "with Preston" comment would have been enough for any Rams fan?

This was probably the route cause of it all. He simply failed to prepare a side for that season, it wasn't for lack of funds or opportunity, he just, for whatever reason, failed to prepare a side to compete that season, and it was a disaster from then on. We can only speculate on exactly what went on behind the scenes, and I've heard many a story about what happened and why, but the simple point is that he as manager failed to prepare a side for that season. 

[MuespachRam]

So just so we are straight @Albert you DO want Billy back yes???