The Current Situation

[sage]

We're on a bad run, we've just lost one manager and a long term caretaker is in charge. Fans are unsettled and the chairman is under fire.

So where are we?

What is wrong and where do we go from here?

First of all, what do we have in term of players? I have divided them into 5 categories

Clough players

Grant, Forsyth, Buxton, Keogh, Hendrick, Hughes, Bryson, Martin, Russell

McClaren  players

Thorne, Warnock, Christie. Shotton, Albentosa

McClaren/Clement players

Ince, Bent

McClaren-Clement transition players

Carson, Baird, Weimann. Pearce

Clement players

Shackell, Olsson, Johnson, Butterfield, , Camara, Blackman

There are 4 things that scream out at me when I look at these lists.

First of all we have 4 categories in the last 2.5 years. Secondly we have too many players. We also have a disjointed squad, 5 left footed wide forwards and no cover/viable alternative for Martin, Thorne and Christie. Finally, not only has the effectiveness of these players declined as you move through the categories, but so as the character and attitude. The team spirit and togetherness has been eroded.

At the end of last season with Ince seemingly nailed on to sign, we needed an better right back, a top drawer right footed left winger and cover for Martin and Thorne. Despite spending £25m on 13 players, including £12m on 5 left footed wide forwards (£18m if you include Johnson) we still haven't solved these problems.  

 

What about management?  Why have we sacked 3 managers in 2.5 years?  

Clough did a great job in terms of getting rid of the deadwood, bringing through young players and picking up bargains with a bit of character. He couldn't take us any further as he lacked financial backing and the confidence to keep playing positive football through bad patches.

McClaren inherited some good players with a good team spirit, added positivity and the ability to attract talented young loan players. In the second season poor recruitment cost us. Shotton and Albentosa were worse than Keogh and Bucko, Thorne/Eustace and Martin weren't replaced and Ince and Bent scored goals but ruined our system.    

Clement wasn't appointed early enough and we ended up with the transition players, Players like Weimann and Pearce who don't fit in the system and no-one knows who wanted them. Did McClaren push for them before he went? Was it too late for Clement to say no? We then had the 'oh **** Hughes and Bryson are injured' signings and the 'lets see how many times we can replicate the Weimann mistake' signings. We played dull football, he never knew his best team and for a man of his pedigree seemed tactically inept.   

and now Wassall...time will tell but only an extreme optimist would bet on him being Derby's manager next season.

 

Fans, the ground and the 'fan experience'

Our attendances are very high, we have an organised South Stand, we have flags and banners and a fans park.

We also have a pretty toxic, impatient atmosphere to say we have spent the last 20 games in the top 6. We never sing when we're behind, we boo at the end of every game we don't win and I have never seen so many people leaving early, game in, game out.  

Why?

Are we shell shocked by how the last 2 seasons have ended or has our comparative success meant a lot of plastic fans are amongst the 5000 we have added to attendances who simply can't cope with adversity. Perhaps a combination of the two.

As Brian used to say though, 3 points shuts a lot of people up.

 

We now have a local owner.

Mel Morris has become a marmite figure. Is he the local fan who has pumped millions into the club into terms of players and the academy or is he the egotistical meddler ready to sack anyone who doesn't agree with him? My opinion is Morris is a very driven, very focused benefactor who wants to drive the club forward. He doesn't suffer fools gladly but nor should he. I think Wassall's appointment will give him some valuable thinking time. He needs to make a very good appointment this summer as well as buying 3-4 excellent players and selling 7-10 misfits. He also needs to reflect on an abysmal last 12 months in the transfer market. 

 

 

So what needs to happen next?

I would be amazed if we went up this season now. A top six finish is unlikely so I think we are effectively in a holding pattern until the summer. For me we need to establish a core squad, mainly made up of those who have been here since the Clough days and sell/release as many of those that either don't fit in to our team, aren't team players or are simply victims of our disjointed recruitment policy. We then need to sign 4 quality players in the areas we need them. However who will decide who stays and goes will the next manager be appointed in time to avoid last summer's problems of unwanted signings like Weimann and Bent. 

I would keep the following

Carson, Grant, Keogh, Shackell. Buxton. Forsyth, Olsson, Christie, Thorne, Hughes, Hendrick, Bryson, Butterfield Russell, Camara and Martin    

Weimann, Bent and Blackman or Ince absolutely have to go. 

I would then look at a RB, right footed winger, cover CF and cover DCM. 

Then stick to a 4-3-3 with ball to feet at a high tempo. 

The rebuilding job ahead is almost as big as the one undertaken by Clough, though our next boss will have the advantage of and improved Moor Farm, financial backing and the support of a chairman who lives, breathes and dreams Derby County. Hopefully that will be our trump card.

  

 

 

 

   

 

 

 

  

 

 

[Mafiabob]

4 minutes ago, sage said:

We're on a bad run, we've just lost one manager and a long term caretaker is in charge. Fans are unsettled and the chairman is under fire.

So where are we?

What is wrong and where do we go from here?

First of all, what do we have in term of players? I have divided them into 5 categories

Clough players

Grant, Forsyth, Buxton, Keogh, Hendrick, Hughes, Bryson, Martin, Russell

McClaren  players

Thorne, Warnock, Christie. Shotton, Albentosa

McClaren/Clement players

Ince, Bent

McClaren-Clement transition players

Carson, Baird, Weimann. Pearce

Clement players

Shackell, Olsson, Johnson, Butterfield, , Camara, Blackman

There are 4 things that scream out at me when I look at these lists.

First of all we have 4 categories in the last 2.5 years. Secondly we have too many players. We also have a disjointed squad, 5 left footed wide forwards and no cover/viable alternative for Martin, Thorne and Christie. Finally, not only has the effectiveness of these players declined as you move through the categories, but so as the character and attitude. The team spirit and togetherness has been eroded.

At the end of last season with Ince seemingly nailed on to sign, we needed an better right back, a top drawer right footed left winger and cover for Martin and Thorne. Despite spending £25m on 13 players, including £12m on 5 left footed wide forwards (£18m if you include Johnson) we still haven't solved these problems.  

 

What about management?  Why have we sacked 3 managers in 2.5 years?  

Clough did a great job in terms of getting rid of the deadwood, bringing through young players and picking up bargains with a bit of character. He couldn't take us any further as he lacked financial backing and the confidence to keep playing positive football through bad patches.

McClaren inherited some good players with a good team spirit, added positivity and the ability to attract talented young loan players. In the second season poor recruitment cost us. Shotton and Albentosa were worse than Keogh and Bucko, Thorne/Eustace and Martin weren't replaced and Ince and Bent scored goals but ruined our system.    

Clement wasn't appointed early enough and we ended up with the transition players, Players like Weimann and Pearce who don't fit in the system and no-one knows who wanted them. Did McClaren push for them before he went? Was it too late for Clement to say no? We then had the 'oh **** Hughes and Bryson are injured' signings and the 'lets see how many times we can replicate the Weimann mistake' signings. We played dull football, he never knew his best team and for a man of his pedigree seemed tactically inept.   

and now Wassall...time will tell but only an extreme optimist would bet on him being Derby's manager next season.

 

Fans, the ground and the 'fan experience'

Our attendances are very high, we have an organised South Stand, we have flags and banners and a fans park.

We also have a pretty toxic, impatient atmosphere to say we have spent the last 20 games in the top 6. We never sing when we're behind, we boo at the end of every game we don't win and I have never seen so many people leaving early, game in, game out.  

Why?

Are we shell shocked by how the last 2 seasons have ended or has our comparative success meant a lot of plastic fans are amongst the 5000 we have added to attendances who simply can't cope with adversity. Perhaps a combination of the two.

As Brian used to say though, 3 points shuts a lot of people up.

 

We now have a local owner.

Mel Morris has become a marmite figure. Is he the local fan who has pumped millions into the club into terms of players and the academy or is he the egotistical meddler ready to sack anyone who doesn't agree with him? My opinion is Morris is a very driven, very focused benefactor who wants to drive the club forward. He doesn't suffer fools gladly but nor should he. I think Wassall's appointment will give him some valuable thinking time. He needs to make a very good appointment this summer as well as buying 3-4 excellent players and selling 7-10 misfits. He also needs to reflect on an abysmal last 12 months in the transfer market. 

 

 

So what needs to happen next?

I would be amazed if we went up this season now. A top six finish is unlikely so I think we are effectively in a holding pattern until the summer. For me we need to establish a core squad, mainly made up of those who have been here since the Clough days and sell/release as many of those that either don't fit in to our team, aren't team players or are simply victims of our disjointed recruitment policy. We then need to sign 4 quality players in the areas we need them. However who will decide who stays and goes will the next manager be appointed in time to avoid last summer's problems of unwanted signings like Weimann and Bent. 

I would keep the following

Carson, Grant, Keogh, Shackell. Buxton. Forsyth, Olsson, Christie, Thorne, Hughes, Hendrick, Bryson, Butterfield Russell, Camara and Martin    

Weimann, Bent and Blackman or Ince absolutely have to go. 

I would then look at a RB, right footed winger, cover CF and cover DCM. 

Then stick to a 4-3-3 with ball to feet at a high tempo. 

The rebuilding job ahead is almost as big as the one undertaken by Clough, though our next boss will have the advantage of and improved Moor Farm, financial backing and the support of a chairman who lives, breathes and dreams Derby County. Hopefully that will be our trump card.

  

 

 

 

   

 

 

 

  

 

 

Would get off Russell too otherwise it's a fair assessment 

[Uptherams]

Let's be honest, Camara is probably the only Clement signing. 

[Mostyn6]

2 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

Let's be honest, Camara is probably the only Clement signing. 

nope

[Philmycock]

3 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

Let's be honest, Camara is probably the only Clement signing. 

He should have started today, could have carved them apart

[RicME85]

Good post, not sure I agree with it all though.

Of topic, I wish people would stop quoting long posts and replying with a single line, especially when they are one of the first five to post, makes awful browsing. Wonder if there is a forum mod @Daveo could install that auto shrinks the content of a quote unless edited (if people highlight or respond directly in the quote then it wouldn't shrink the quote)

[sage]

Just now, RicME85 said:

Good post, not sure I agree with it all though.

Of topic, I wish people would stop quoting long posts and replying with a single line, especially when they are one of the first five to post, makes awful browsing. Wonder if there is a forum mod @Daveo could install that auto shrinks the content of a quote unless edited (if people highlight or respond directly in the quote then it wouldn't shrink the quote)

I would be amazed if anyone did. There is too much detail for there to be a consensus.   

[Ram a lamb a ding dong]

Good post. When the cold hard facts are laid out its clear the signings since the summer have been shambolic. Almost feels that the harmony created by Nige has been blown to pieces. I've written this season off altogether. Only fear i have is that the next guy in charge will have to carry out some drastic surgery to get the team playing as a team and not a bunch of individuals.

[RamNut]

25 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

nope

What he isn't the only clement signing? Or he isn't a clement signing?

[RicME85]

In the deleted thread @Mostyn6 said something like that they were all his signings but he hadnt actually seen a lot of them playplay when he said get them.

To me that sounds like the team identified the players, Clement looked at the stats and figures they presented and pulled the trigger on the deal. IMO that is different to Clement identifying targets himself and saying 'go get me X'. Both could be classed as being Clement signings but in reality only one is, the other he has agreed on a signing based in presented facts.

[DCFCArmy]

I just don't know why we signed Bent, Baird, Weimann, Pearce, Shotton, Camara, Blackman.. And then there's Warnock and Johnson, Warnock signed as back-up, he's done ok but he's no first teamer now tbh, Johnson never gets played in his correct position but willing to stick with him for the time being. Butterfield has been our best player this season but is the first one dropped which is baffling. 

All in all though barring Ince (even he's been dreadful lately but he's a top player when motivated), Carson and Shackell and Butters (seems to be getting pushed out mind) the rest have been pretty poor or not given a chance, even when getting a chance they've not been given long enough to find their feet. 

close to 30m quid and we've managed 3 good signings, not to mention the wages their on. 

 

[RamNut]

It feels like the mess that jewell left behind when there was far too much change in a short space of time.

i haven't got a clue where we're going.

we don't even know what shape we are now. Or whether we are long ball or short passing.

We've gone from having the former England manager with a definate concept that worked, to Real Madrid's no2,  to an absolute rookie. Recruitment seems chaotic. I don't even understand who is making the decisions anymore.

i never walk out. I stay to the bitter end and usually clap the players off, although today i didn't bother clapping.

For me, the back four and the keeper are ok. Thorne i am unsure about. Great player when fit, but is he fit? I don't think he is tbh. He is the only natural holding player but his game is deteriorating. Too deep. Too safe. If he needs another op then lets do it now because this season is a probably a write-off. As for the creatives in central midfield we have to pick 2 from 5! Hughes, bryson, hendrick, butterfield and johnson. Its getting to the point where i haven't got a clue but really any 2 from 5 should be good enough although there are question marks about fitness, form, consistency and/or character for all of them. Worth remembering that we need need 20 goals from whichever two we pick.

The bigger problems are up front. We don't have any natural wide players who will drop back into midfield as required. Does Russell play on the left or the right? Ditto ince. Ditto blackman. What is weimann? We paid a million over the odds for camara and tbh i'd rather have dawkins - another misfit. recruitment is everything and ours is shocking. There seems to be precious little to build on up front. many players just aren't good enough. That is the brutal truth.

i can't see how any coach can come in and mend this without having full responsibility for transfers.

we need a manager not a coach. We need someone with a track record of building teams - an Arthur Cox or a Jim Smith. I've no idea who. A charismatic leader who will punch the lights out of any interfering third party who thinks they are entitled to enter the dressing room to "carpet everybody". And we need directors who will let the manager manage. 

Its looks horrible right now.

[DcFc Dyycheee]

Johnson, Russell, Baird, Weimann, Bent, Shotton, Pearce, Grant all need to go in the summer. Won't be easy with Johnson and Weimann, on a lot of money and on long contracts, not sure they'll want a move. Same with Russell, just signed a new deal. Not sure with Blackman and Camara, not seen them enough to judge yet.

We're at that stage again now with average players, on a **** ton of money and on long contracts. 

No doubt we'll see a lot of loan moves out next season.

[MrsRam]

You talk sense Ramnut - when you're not being sarky - don't know you you remind me of tbh.......

[scarboroughwa]

Just let the owner/defacto Manager/defacto coach pick the Team and be done with it (one and the same).

Good businessmen can be football professionals too, you know.

[IlsonDerby]

Anybody not in the long term plans get out on loan. Even now, get them off our wage bill. 

 

Johnson doesn't have the technical ability for the type of football Mel wants to see (if we assume macs first season). 

Weimann is robbing a living. Awful player. 

Ince just doesn't suit our style of football. All the technical ability in the world but tends to slow down our attacks. 

I like butterfield, Hendricks, Bryson, Thorne, Hughes and Hanson. That would be our midfield 6 for next season (2 dm, 2 carriers, 2 architects) 

Martin will do a job and if Villa come down and Mel has the money to splash I'd go for Gustede as competition. 

Defensively I'd be happy with shacks, keogh, Buxton and rawson as our options for cb. Forsyth and Olson will both be good enough for this division and I like Christie. If sssewankambo is ready to step up we don't need competition for that spot.

our wingers are where we fall short. I'd keep Russell for now because otherwise the rebuild becomes even bigger. I think Russell and Camara can do a job out wide currently. 

Carson and grant will do though grant is getting shakier by the performance. 

By my reckoning that leaves us with the need to ship out about 5 expensive players and bring in 3 quality players that suit our system (Gustede + a winger or 2, right footed of course) 

 

[top 6 finish]

Ramnut,Will a real manager be allowed to manage by our owner?

[ketteringram]

@RamNut . Not even going to bother posting my thoughts, because you've already done it for me. Spot on. Especially your first three lines. 

[Eatonram]

10 hours ago, Mafiabob said:

Despite spending £25m on 13 players, including £12m on 5 left footed wide forwards (£18m if you include Johnson) we still haven't solved these problems.  

 

True but I think people forget we lost Hughes and Bryson on day one. I doubt if not for that the spending my have been aboyt £10m less.

[davenportram]

And for those interested here are the players who will be out of contract at the end of the season

 

ERBY COUNTY SQUAD Contracts

Italics = Under 21 squad players and first year pro contracts

 

Keepers

Mats Morch. ……………...…..2016?(joined 2013 - all we know is under contract past 2015)

Jonathan Mitchell………....….2016?(joined 2014 - all we know is new deal signed in 2015)

Full Backs

Max Lowe...............................Signed fist pro contract 2015

Centre Halves

Farrend Rawson…………....2016? (joined from academy in 2014 all we know is new signed in 2015) Loaned to Rotherham until January.

Jack Tuite ..........................signed first pro  contrat 2015

Midfield

Callum Guy…………….…2016 (joined from academy Jan 2015)

Alban Bunjaku……………..2016 (joined 2014)

Alefe Santos ………......….2016 + 1 year option (joined 2014)

Ivan Calero   ……………....2016 +1 year option (joined 2014)

Tom Koblenz ………....…..2016 (joined 2014)

 

Forwards/Strikers

Conor Sammon........................2016 (joined 2013) on loan to Sheffield United for the season

Shaquille McDonald …………2016 ( joined 2014)

 

Charles Vernam...................signed first procontract 2015

 

the strike through ones are out on loan at the moment. Ive included the academy players who signed first pro contracts because we dont know when their contracts runs out.

 

We have a huge squad without these, and seeing as many of these have never featured on a matchday theres very little natural movement out of the squad.