Maybe need to be a tad more direct

[Ovis aries]

Derby have completed a league-high 2,496 passes in the Championship so far in 2015-16.

[Alph]

Yeah, but on the floor. Trust Martin more.

I don't agree with Craig Ramage on anything. He's a contradicting, moaning bugger who would have 11 grafters over footballers. But there's is one thing. Don't give Chris Martin fighting balls. He doesn't want to chase, jump, scrap or gamble on balls in the channels etc. So there's no good being more direct that way. 

But starting at the back, making sure you only take the touches you need. How many times do we see

Baird 2 touches - Keogh 2 touches - Shackell 2 touches - Forsyth/Warnock 2 touches. 

How much could you cut out? Does the ball need to stop at every man along the line? Can we not miss one? If it is hitting every man then why do they all need 2 touches to play 15 yard passes? 

It all starts at the back. The urgency. A midfield can't turn if they're being read. 

People need to make sure they first look forward. If there's space then step in it. If there's a pass then use it. Don't go all Cyrus Christie and measure up the pros and cons. If it's not on then you still need to move it fast otherwise the opponent will just trot across and squeeze the next space. 

Sounds obvious and we all know it.

So why do we see a pass between 2 CB's take half hour to reach a spot half a yard behind the receiving player? Stop it. It's alright if you're sitting on lead to waste time.

[Duracell]

Yeah, but on the floor. Trust Martin more.

I don't agree with Craig Ramage on anything. He's a contradicting, moaning bugger who would have 11 grafters over footballers. But there's is one thing. Don't give Chris Martin fighting balls. He doesn't want to chase, jump, scrap or gamble on balls in the channels etc. So there's no good being more direct that way. 

But starting at the back, making sure you only take the touches you need. How many times do we see

Baird 2 touches - Keogh 2 touches - Shackell 2 touches - Forsyth/Warnock 2 touches. 

How much could you cut out? Does the ball need to stop at every man along the line? Can we not miss one? If it is hitting every man then why do they all need 2 touches to play 15 yard passes? 

It all starts at the back. The urgency. A midfield can't turn if they're being read. 

People need to make sure they first look forward. If there's space then step in it. If there's a pass then use it. Don't go all Cyrus Christie and measure up the pros and cons. If it's not on then you still need to move it fast otherwise the opponent will just trot across and squeeze the next space. 

Sounds obvious and we all know it.

So why do we see a pass between 2 CB's take half hour to reach a spot half a yard behind the receiving player? Stop it. It's alright if you're sitting on lead to waste time.

That just sounds to me like we should be moving the ball quicker, rather than becoming more direct.

A bit like the first twenty minutes of the second half versus Leeds. That's the best spell we've had since Wolves last season or maybe even the run in to the 2013/14 season. The result taints it hugely, but that's what we're about and we've still got it in us.

[Srg]

Don't think it's being more direct we need, just think we need to move it quicker at times. Side to side is fine, as long as at some point the ball is fizzed across and pace is injected... Which all too often it hasn't been. 

[Duracell]

Wonder how often the team with the most passes completed fail to make the playoffs? That normally shows quality, and quality gets you into the top 6.

@Albert, @Ambitious, or someone, help me out here.

[Alph]

That just sounds to me like we should be moving the ball quicker, rather than becoming more direct.

A bit like the first twenty minutes of the second half versus Leeds. That's the best spell we've had since Wolves last season or maybe even the run in to the 2013/14 season. The result taints it hugely, but that's what we're about and we've still got it in us.

Yeah. 

I get annoyed with Shackell and Warnock mostly. A bit with Baird and I can't even talk about Christie.

We all know they aren't going forwards with it. It's going along the line. So why does it take 5 minutes for them to figure it out? Then when they do exactly what everyone knows they'll do why does the receiver have to collect the ball from slightly behind him? In the time this has happened as a defender got my distance perfect on my marker. I can stand 5-10 yards off him so he's "open" and then if the pass comes I've got momentum to pounce forward. 

Imagine if everyone had a bit more conviction and aggression. Even if the passing is more or less the same. As an opponent you're not able to set up. You're chasing your position all the time. 

Then imagine if someone used this pace to turn the ball forward. Then back again maybe. Constantly chasing a ball that's never still. 

Obvious to us all apart from our back line at times who have fell asleep on it and in frustration are sending fighting balls into Martin. 

People can blame the team when at times they're given nothing to work with by the back players. 

[G STAR RAM]

Yeah, but on the floor. Trust Martin more.

I don't agree with Craig Ramage on anything. He's a contradicting, moaning bugger who would have 11 grafters over footballers. But there's is one thing. Don't give Chris Martin fighting balls. He doesn't want to chase, jump, scrap or gamble on balls in the channels etc. So there's no good being more direct that way. 

But starting at the back, making sure you only take the touches you need. How many times do we see

Baird 2 touches - Keogh 2 touches - Shackell 2 touches - Forsyth/Warnock 2 touches. 

How much could you cut out? Does the ball need to stop at every man along the line? Can we not miss one? If it is hitting every man then why do they all need 2 touches to play 15 yard passes? 

It all starts at the back. The urgency. A midfield can't turn if they're being read. 

People need to make sure they first look forward. If there's space then step in it. If there's a pass then use it. Don't go all Cyrus Christie and measure up the pros and cons. If it's not on then you still need to move it fast otherwise the opponent will just trot across and squeeze the next space. 

Sounds obvious and we all know it.

So why do we see a pass between 2 CB's take half hour to reach a spot half a yard behind the receiving player? Stop it. It's alright if you're sitting on lead to waste time.

This /\ /\ /\

Watching our defenders moving the ball along the back line reminds me of watching an under 7s training session sometimes.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Against PNE (I only watched the first half) we consistently played percentage balls down the channels for 35mins. I thought Warnock had morphed into Jay McEveley. Chip - chip - chip.........................Really hacked off with what I saw! 

[Guest]

Whilst the CBs could do with moving the ball quicker sometimes, what they are trying to do is create the space and moving the opposition by switching the play, the problem to me is that the the full backs are two far away from the midfield and therefore it enables other teams to easily push on and pressure the full backs and we end up going back again to keep the ball.  With Hughes in the team, we had a player from midfield other than Thorne who showed for the ball, could control it and bring others into play, with Hendrick and Hanson we were lacking that, and we become predictable and easily to play against by closing down the channels.

We don't need to drastically change our play imo, just add a few more options to it, one of the is not relying on wing play all the time.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

I will be at Reading tomorrow night cheering like a madman as usual but................I have to say...........despite the win on Saturday I am very worried about this season. I have a tiny bit of hope that Clement is seeing it all as he immediately said in his interview after the Preston game that he was disappointed with how we played. It seems to me we are now a completely different side to the last two years. Don't expect the same style of play as you will be disappointed.

Clement is going for a very hard to beat approach which I suspect involves high slow possession if necessary or playing long ball down the channels if pressed. The boys may pick it up and become very effective but it won't be pretty!

[Alph]

Yeah nothing wrong with going from side to side probing and testing. Finding the door closed and coming back etc. 

But if the passing is so slow and every defender needs numerous touches and it stops off at every defender on its way (sometimes behind them) then the door will always be closed. You'll have to keep coming back. 

@The Scarlet Pimpernel... Agree. Bit frustrating to watch. Martin doesn't want that. You won't get owt out of him. 

[KBB]

If you do your coaching badges, as I imagine many on here have, the higher you progress through, the more emphasis is placed on possession retention and moving through phases of play.

whenever I have coached and been coached by high level coaches they always say something along the lines of "keep possession, be patient, frustrate the opposition and when they come running for the ball and are out of position, then you play it round them and tear them to pieces at pace with incisive passes"

unfortunately for our players, our fans are normally shouting "get it forward","stop pissing about with it" before the opposition get to that point.....

[G STAR RAM]

Whilst the CBs could do with moving the ball quicker sometimes, what they are trying to do is create the space and moving the opposition by switching the play, the problem to me is that the the full backs are two far away from the midfield and therefore it enables other teams to easily push on and pressure the full backs and we end up going back again to keep the ball.  With Hughes in the team, we had a player from midfield other than Thorne who showed for the ball, could control it and bring others into play, with Hendrick and Hanson we were lacking that, and we become predictable and easily to play against by closing down the channels.

We don't need to drastically change our play imo, just add a few more options to it, one of the is not relying on wing play all the time.

Trying to create space is good but pretty pointless when the opposition have the chance to close the gaps because it takes too long for our centre backs to use the space.

Pass > stop the ball > two strides forward > stop the ball > turn around > pass

It's laboured and predictable.

[StringerBell]

Yeah, but on the floor. Trust Martin more.

I don't agree with Craig Ramage on anything. He's a contradicting, moaning bugger who would have 11 grafters over footballers. But there's is one thing. Don't give Chris Martin fighting balls. He doesn't want to chase, jump, scrap or gamble on balls in the channels etc. So there's no good being more direct that way. 

But starting at the back, making sure you only take the touches you need. How many times do we see

Baird 2 touches - Keogh 2 touches - Shackell 2 touches - Forsyth/Warnock 2 touches. 

How much could you cut out? Does the ball need to stop at every man along the line? Can we not miss one? If it is hitting every man then why do they all need 2 touches to play 15 yard passes? 

It all starts at the back. The urgency. A midfield can't turn if they're being read. 

People need to make sure they first look forward. If there's space then step in it. If there's a pass then use it. Don't go all Cyrus Christie and measure up the pros and cons. If it's not on then you still need to move it fast otherwise the opponent will just trot across and squeeze the next space. 

Sounds obvious and we all know it.

So why do we see a pass between 2 CB's take half hour to reach a spot half a yard behind the receiving player? Stop it. It's alright if you're sitting on lead to waste time.

I largely agree. But another valid reason to do it is to give the forward players a breather. You can't play at 100mph for the whole match, but granted we need to raise the tempo a lot more than what we are doing.

[Ambitious]

Wonder how often the team with the most passes completed fail to make the playoffs? That normally shows quality, and quality gets you into the top 6.

@Albert, @Ambitious, or someone, help me out here.

It's hard to show because I can't find a database prior to 2013/14. 

However, in the season we made the play-off final, it was Brighton, and last season it was Bournemouth.

[Duracell]

It's hard to show because I can't find a database prior to 2013/14. 

However, in the season we made the play-off final, it was Brighton, and last season it was Bournemouth.

so 100% of the time then....

[MuespachRam]

Wonder how often the team with the most passes completed fail to make the playoffs? That normally shows quality, and quality gets you into the top 6.

@Albert, @Ambitious, or someone, help me out here.

probably last season when we finished 8th....?

[Ovis aries]

so 100% of the time then....

Just a matter of time then before we hit the top six

 

[Duracell]

probably last season when we finished 8th....?

Last season it was Bournemouth, who were champions.

[curb]

If you do your coaching badges, as I imagine many on here have, the higher you progress through, the more emphasis is placed on possession retention and moving through phases of play.

whenever I have coached and been coached by high level coaches they always say something along the lines of "keep possession, be patient, frustrate the opposition and when they come running for the ball and are out of position, then you play it round them and tear them to pieces at pace with incisive passes"

unfortunately for our players, our fans are normally shouting "get it forward","stop pissing about with it" before the opposition get to that point.....

All the opposition coach has to do then, is tell his players not to go out running for the ball, and we'll just end up passing it accross the line until the ref blows the final whistle.

I've never done any coaching courses or watched any for that matter, but I suspect English coaching has become as one dimensional as the England team. Recieve the ball, turn back, pass accross, receive the ball, turn back, pass accross......