(Former?) Captain Calamity

[Cam the Ram]

fair comment. Of course none of us know what happens behind the scenes (though some would like to think they do). I just call it as I think I see it. But that's the point. Some people wear rose tinted classes, some people have their heads in the sand, some people are so obsessed with things they become blind, some people see red etc. we all see different things. There's no right or wrong way of looking at something. If you make the case for your argument and it's rebutted in the same way then it all makes for good debate. Which is why we're all here. 

People have become so obsessed with their dislike for Keogh they actually appear to hope he makes a mistake just so they can have a moan about him. You call it as you see it? Well I saw Keogh captain the side to 3rd in the league during the 2013-14 season, I saw Keogh chosen as captain for every team he's played for and I saw all the players/managers who were asked about Keogh describe him as a leader. He struggled last season (as everyone did, but people seem to blame it all on Keogh) because one week he'd have Buxton partnering him, next week it would be Albentosa, then Shotton, then Forsyth, then Whitbread. He was the only player in our back 6 (keeper, defence and holding mid) to stay fit for the whole season (Forsyth was fit but got dropped for Warnock), anyone would struggle in that situation. And it speaks volumes that despite all the changing and our drop in form, his piers still voted him in the top 2 centre backs in this league. You might appreciate Keogh more if you stop looking out for his mistakes and start looking at his strengths. Him, Buxton and Russell are the most passionate players to pull on a Derby shirt in recent years, it would be nice if the fans can show the same sort of passion towards him rather than anger and abuse.

[Day]

When I look at Keogh I see a player who tries to be a good leader, but is held back by his own mistakes which are often so simple that they could be avoided. As I've already said, I think these mistakes are the consequence of being too nervous and panicky, which are themselves a consequence of wearing the armband. It's perfectly understandable, some people cope well under pressure, others don't. I think most people would agree that Keogh doesn't cope well when pressured. In fact this weakness is exploited by the opposition in games, if they force us to play deep and put pressure on the back four then they know there's a chance Keogh will crack. 

Could that pressure be from the fans giving him stick and not the piece of elastic round his bicep?

I also think that he's got himself a reputation of being a scapegoat, which is counterproductive.

Have you seen the title you gave this topic?

I think at this point there's too much water under the bridge for us to pretend that that isn't a problem. It would be the best thing for the fans and Keogh if the armband was simply given to someone else. 

As as for who should wear the armband, I'd rather see it go to a Eustace type, in that respect Chris Baird is the logical next step. 

I agree kind of, too much has happened, fans won't let go of this Keogh bashing, blaming him for every goal. I'd like to go one step further, not just take the armband but find him a new club. A club that will have fans that will get behind him, give him a fresh start, he doesn't deserve the amount of abuse he's had post Wembley. 

[SK47]

I actually think Keogh will benefit from not being Captain. Above all, He's an honest man. And I think he would tell you that it's hard to rally the troops when you have every man his ram watching you like a hawk, And asking for his head over any slip ups/errors.

Who knows, Some time out the spot light, And knowing that his place won't be Guarenteed anymore, it Might be the saving of Keogh with Derby...

 

[harbourram]

Ah. So if the captaincy is so irrelevant, then surely none of you would disagree with demoting Keogh and doing away with it completely? Just having the manager as the sole 'leader' type? 

[Sexydadbod]

No one is saying to demote Keogh because he is a bad leader (I think) but because it will take the pressure off him and will allow him to focus on his own game rather than worrying about others. I personally don't care who is the captain,just as long he is a popular guy in the dressing room

[Alph]

If Keogh is popular and respected among the group. An "alpha male" if you like, then people will look to him with or without the armband.

Whether he's good or not doesn't come into it. Eustace was a leader even while injured. Doesn't even have to play. If he's an intelligent, popular well liked bloke who others can communicate with then he'll lead naturally. 

People don't follow the armband. You don't pick a captain. You can stick the armband on anyone but lads will pick who they listen to. Who they follow. 

It won't be based on their ability or their clothing accessories. It's a personality thing. It's not who shouts the loudest or who has a PhD. It's who you trust and like. 

The fact that Keogh keeps captaining teams shows he's a popular guy who many people like to listen to. He's a leader. 

Mel Morris spoke about bringing in more leaders. Trying to identify other lads who have a certain authority about them. Lads who perhaps have other ways of offering advice and support. More communication. He spoke about a leadership group.

[Lord_Ram]

will allow him to focus on his own game rather than worrying about others.

when you have players like second half of the season christie playing next to you no matter how much a leader you are you can't do anything but worry about others and have to focus on their game as well

[DEL]

Blimey...

[harbourram]

Could that pressure be from the fans giving him stick and not the piece of elastic round his bicep?

Have you seen the title you gave this topic?

I agree kind of, too much has happened, fans won't let go of this Keogh bashing, blaming him for every goal. I'd like to go one step further, not just take the armband but find him a new club. A club that will have fans that will get behind him, give him a fresh start, he doesn't deserve the amount of abuse he's had post Wembley. 

Depends what you mean by abuse. In my mind there are three lines. One is calling your players names, 'captain calamity, captain chaos etc'. The second is standing up during a match and shouting obscenities at the player when you know they can hear you. The third is when you use social media outlets to directly attack the player, or even worse, their family and/or spouse. 

The first is permissible in my book, whether it be in conversation, or on a forum. I've called him 'captain calamity'. So what? I haven't sworn. I haven't assassinated his person character. I haven't threatened him directly. 

I'm happy to cross the first line. The other two are abhorrent  and I wholeheartedly disagree with them. The third is the worst because it involves the worst kind of gutter abuse. 

I just think its important to make a distinction between those forms of abuse. If you take this into context, then simply calling him captain calamity doesn't seem that offensive at all. I agree that it contributes to an overall aura of negativity surrounding his name, but I'm not taking part in the other two. 

[harbourram]

People have become so obsessed with their dislike for Keogh they actually appear to hope he makes a mistake just so they can have a moan about him. You call it as you see it? Well I saw Keogh captain the side to 3rd in the league during the 2013-14 season, I saw Keogh chosen as captain for every team he's played for and I saw all the players/managers who were asked about Keogh describe him as a leader. He struggled last season (as everyone did, but people seem to blame it all on Keogh) because one week he'd have Buxton partnering him, next week it would be Albentosa, then Shotton, then Forsyth, then Whitbread. He was the only player in our back 6 (keeper, defence and holding mid) to stay fit for the whole season (Forsyth was fit but got dropped for Warnock), anyone would struggle in that situation. And it speaks volumes that despite all the changing and our drop in form, his piers still voted him in the top 2 centre backs in this league. You might appreciate Keogh more if you stop looking out for his mistakes and start looking at his strengths. Him, Buxton and Russell are the most passionate players to pull on a Derby shirt in recent years, it would be nice if the fans can show the same sort of passion towards him rather than anger and abuse.

*peers 

[Cam the Ram]

Did it again today didn't he with that penalty? 

After Clements comments today I can see a few players going. The fact he wasn't captain today shows that Clement is open to the idea of demoting Keogh, which isn't surprising seeing as he isn't much of leader. Pretty sure his double mistake didn't exactly fill Clement with confidence 3 weeks before the first game of the season. 

Don't get me wrong, I still think there is still a place for Keogh in this Derby team, not as a captain, but perhaps as a squad player. 

The fact we're after Shackell shows that we actively looking for better defenders. But in the end maybe its the best thing for everybody that he just leaves. Too much water under the bridge and all that. 

we are actively*

it's*

[Alph]

Ah. So if the captaincy is so irrelevant, then surely none of you would disagree with demoting Keogh and doing away with it completely? Just having the manager as the sole 'leader' type? 

He'd lead anyway without it. In any group of lads there's always one (or more in bigger groups like football teams) that others sort of allow to pursuade them. 

Think of your own group of friends.  I could tell you that you're the leader and the first thought in your head would either be "Well I usually pick the where's and when's and what's anyway" or "I bet xxxx wouldn't like hearing that". 

Nothing to do with ability to fight or pull women or make each other laugh. It's the lad that's most confident. Most assured and persuasive. He'll continue to do that no matter who I designate the leader. Or even if I designate nobody. If I say from now on each week one of you decides what the group is doing I bet every member of the group thinks about what the others would think about it. And the person you worry most about keeping happy.... There's your alpha male. Not always unchallenged. He's not a boss. 

That's why fans can't pick a captain. We just don't know the group. But they'll always have leaders. You won't ever take that away. But you can't pick them.

[Scott129]

fair comment. Of course none of us know what happens behind the scenes (though some would like to think they do). I just call it as I think I see it. But that's the point. Some people wear rose tinted classes, some people have their heads in the sand, some people are so obsessed with things they become blind, some people see red etc. we all see different things. There's no right or wrong way of looking at something. If you make the case for your argument and it's rebutted in the same way then it all makes for good debate. Which is why we're all here. 

Says the guy making judgments on whether he's a good captain or not.

[harbourram]

we are actively*

it's*

*I used 'it's' in the possessive form, not in the contracted form. In the possessive form 'its' is  actually an acceptable way of spelling 'it's' without the apostrophe. 

[harbourram]

Says the guy making judgments on whether he's a good captain or not.

I'm glad you think he is. When we stick with him and end up in the same mess next year feel free to congratulate me. 

[Scott129]

I'm glad you think he is. When we stick with him and end up in the same mess next year feel free to congratulate me. 

Taking pride in our club's potential failure? Niiiice.

The point is you have no basis to your opinion. You even said yourself - none of us know what goes on behind the scenes. Therefore, you can't really judge him and state it as fact.

[Cam the Ram]

*I used 'it's' in the possessive form, not in the contracted form. In the possessive form 'its' is  actually an acceptable way of spelling 'it's' without the apostrophe. 

And I didn't expect this to turn into an English lesson when writing my response to your thread. I rushed the response and made a mistake, instead of ignoring this and responding to my actual point, you chose to act immature. You've made errors in your posts as well, who cares? This is a forum about Derby County, not about who's the smartest.

[Chris Mills]

Did it again today didn't he with that penalty? 

After Clements comments today I can see a few players going. The fact he wasn't captain today shows that Clement is open to the idea of demoting Keogh, which isn't surprising seeing as he isn't much of leader. Pretty sure his double mistake didn't exactly fill Clement with confidence 3 weeks before the first game of the season. 

Don't get me wrong, I still think there is still a place for Keogh in this Derby team, not as a captain, but perhaps as a squad player. 

The fact we're after Shackell shows that we actively looking for better defenders. But in the end maybe its the best thing for everybody that he just leaves. Too much water under the bridge and all that. 

you're embarrassing yourself. 

[CheltenhamRam]

Daveo what pizza??

[Pearl Ram]

Good grief (trying my best to refrain from profanity) I can feel another "ignore" coming on.