(Former?) Captain Calamity

[harbourram]

Did it again today didn't he with that penalty? 

After Clements comments today I can see a few players going. The fact he wasn't captain today shows that Clement is open to the idea of demoting Keogh, which isn't surprising seeing as he isn't much of leader. Pretty sure his double mistake didn't exactly fill Clement with confidence 3 weeks before the first game of the season. 

Don't get me wrong, I still think there is still a place for Keogh in this Derby team, not as a captain, but perhaps as a squad player. 

The fact we're after Shackell shows that we actively looking for better defenders. But in the end maybe its the best thing for everybody that he just leaves. Too much water under the bridge and all that. 

[Day]

I pulled out some quotes from managers and players commenting on Keoghs leadership a few weeks ago, all positive, I'll find them after I've eaten me pizza. 

[Rev]

Did it again today didn't he with that penalty? 

After Clements comments today I can see a few players going. The fact he wasn't captain today shows that Clement is open to the idea of demoting Keogh, which isn't surprising seeing as he isn't much of leader. Pretty sure his double mistake didn't exactly fill Clement with confidence 3 weeks before the first game of the season. 

Don't get me wrong, I still think there is still a place for Keogh in this Derby team, not as a captain, but perhaps as a squad player. 

The fact we're after Shackell shows that we actively looking for better defenders. But in the end maybe its the best thing for everybody that he just leaves. Too much water under the bridge and all that. 

 

The fact you name him captain calamity in the thread title suggests you don't see that much of a future for him, even as a squad player? 

[harbourram]

 

 

I pulled out some quotes from managers and players commenting on Keoghs leadership a few weeks ago, all positive, I'll find them after I've eaten me pizza. 

Perhaps the fact that he's open to other players being captain shows that he doesn't think he has very good leadership qualities? 

 

No. I think that being captain brings extra responsibilities and pressure. If he didn't have that weight on his shoulders, perhaps he could focus better on defending. As a leader, your mistakes are scrutinised more, and then you feel more pressure not to make the same mistakes again. And Keogh does not fare well under pressure. In fact under pressure he is prone to make even more basic mistakes. 

If he were to be demoted, then there would be a place for him in the team. But as it is, he is not a leader, and therefore isn't fit for purpose in his current role. 

 

[RLACML]

Yawn

[t'oldu]

He has been Captain at his previous clubs too

[harbourram]

He has been Captain at his previous clubs too

So was Warnock. And your point is? 

[harbourram]

[Gary Teale]

So was Warnock. And your point is? 

maybe his was point was that being captain at Carlisle, Coventry and derby might mean he has some leadership qualities you are not aware off.

[Sexydadbod]

Stop burying your head in the sand you ostrich 

[harbourram]

maybe his was point was that being captain at Carlisle, Coventry and derby might mean he has some leadership qualities you are not aware off.

Warnock was captain at Leeds, maybe he has some leadership qualities you are not aware of. 

[Day]

Perhaps the fact that he's open to other players being captain shows that he doesn't think he has very good leadership qualities? 

Or he thinks if another player in the squad is better suited he is willing to step aside for the good of the team?

No. I think that being captain brings extra responsibilities and pressure. If he didn't have that weight on his shoulders, perhaps he could focus better on defending. As a leader, your mistakes are scrutinised more, and then you feel more pressure not to make the same mistakes again. And Keogh does not fare well under pressure. In fact under pressure he is prone to make even more basic mistakes. 

If he were to be demoted, then there would be a place for him in the team. But as it is, he is not a leader, and therefore isn't fit for purpose in his current role. 

The thing is a captains job isn't just the 90 minutes on the pitch, we don't see the captain Keogh behind the scenes, we don't know what the players think of Keogh.....well I know Christie rates him as a top leader unless he lied in his interview, both Clough and McClaren made him captain, Martin O'Neill also chose him as captain all be it in a friendly.

Who is or isn't the captain in my opinion is not something us fans can have a real opinion on without an inside knowledge of behind the scenes.

[harbourram]

Or he thinks if another player in the squad is better suited he is willing to step aside for the good of the team?

The thing is a captains job isn't just the 90 minutes on the pitch, we don't see the captain Keogh behind the scenes, we don't know what the players think of Keogh.....well I know Christie rates him as a top leader unless he lied in his interview, both Clough and McClaren made him captain, Martin O'Neill also chose him as captain all be it in a friendly.

Who is or isn't the captain in my opinion is not something us fans can have a real opinion on without an inside knowledge of behind the scenes.

fair comment. Of course none of us know what happens behind the scenes (though some would like to think they do). I just call it as I think I see it. But that's the point. Some people wear rose tinted classes, some people have their heads in the sand, some people are so obsessed with things they become blind, some people see red etc. we all see different things. There's no right or wrong way of looking at something. If you make the case for your argument and it's rebutted in the same way then it all makes for good debate. Which is why we're all here. 

[Day]

fair comment. Of course none of us know what happens behind the scenes (though some would like to think they do). I just call it as I think I see it. But that's the point. Some people wear rose tinted classes, some people have their heads in the sand, some people are so obsessed with things they become blind, some people see red etc. we all see different things. There's no right or wrong way of looking at something. If you make the case for your argument and it's rebutted in the same way then it all makes for good debate. Which is why we're all here. 

Out of interest can you explain why you think Keogh "isn't much of a leader" just so we know where you are coming from and how you came to that conclusion. Also who would you like to see captain and what they would bring to the role?

[Gary Teale]

Well I have seen derby train lots of times and Keogh is clearly the leader of the pack and anyone who has met him will know he is a bit of a character. 

What can we take thus far from pre season, nothing really apart from we look like we will carry on with 433 but the personnel we haven't got a clue and it doesn't look like clement does, if people are taking Baird will be captain from pre season then he will also play DM ahead of Thorne.

[Srg]

Ah the good old Captain debate.

Wearing a f*cking armband doesn't mean you're more or less of a leader than if you don't. It means literally nothing other than you get to go out the tunnel first and swap little pendants.

[AmericanRam]

I tbh don't really care who is captain. I have no preference really one way or the other. If Keogh is captain for Bolton, or if it is someone else, whatever.

[Alph]

Or he thinks if another player in the squad is better suited he is willing to step aside for the good of the team?

The thing is a captains job isn't just the 90 minutes on the pitch, we don't see the captain Keogh behind the scenes, we don't know what the players think of Keogh.....well I know Christie rates him as a top leader unless he lied in his interview, both Clough and McClaren made him captain, Martin O'Neill also chose him as captain all be it in a friendly.

Who is or isn't the captain in my opinion is not something us fans can have a real opinion on without an inside knowledge of behind the scenes.

Been saying it for weeks but nobody agrees/listens.

There's this idea that the captains armband has some magical power over other players and everybody looks to that one person. And that it's not about popularity, trust and respect among the lads. It's about arm movements. You can't have multiple leaders. Just one mini manager.  

I swear people have either never played football or forgotten all about it. 

It's an armband. If it wasn't for the ambassador role then I'd imagine nobody would even bother with an armband. Leaders lead. Armband or not. 

[harbourram]

When I look at Keogh I see a player who tries to be a good leader, but is held back by his own mistakes which are often so simple that they could be avoided. As I've already said, I think these mistakes are the consequence of being too nervous and panicky, which are themselves a consequence of wearing the armband. It's perfectly understandable, some people cope well under pressure, others don't. I think most people would agree that Keogh doesn't cope well when pressured. In fact this weakness is exploited by the opposition in games, if they force us to play deep and put pressure on the back four then they know there's a chance Keogh will crack. 

I also think that he's got himself a reputation of being a scapegoat, which is counterproductive. I think at this point there's too much water under the bridge for us to pretend that that isn't a problem. It would be the best thing for the fans and Keogh if the armband was simply given to someone else. 

As as for who should wear the armband, I'd rather see it go to a Eustace type, in that respect Chris Baird is the logical next step. 

[Sexydadbod]

I'm not bothered who is captain, just as long as the players get along with the captain and like him because you don't want to be in a position like some other clubs where there are divisions in the dressing room.