Scrapping the 4-3-3

[Nuwtfly]

Can't help but think that over the course of this season, the way we play became easier and easier for teams to play against. I first thought this when we played Boro for the first time. They didn't play particularly well, but they knew how to work our system to-a-tee, and we couldn't find a way to score. Without that Thorne role being filled, it just didn't work at times this season. Especially towards the end of the season.

A lot of people were saying when SMC first came in, that a lot of our success was due to the fact that we were doing something different to any other championship team. For this reason, I propose that maybe it's time to try something new again.

What would you guys go for if you could shake things up? And who would you bring in/chuck out to suit your new style?

I'd go for the 3-5-2, and it might look a little like this:

                                                                                      Grant (or a new keeper!)

                                                             

                                                              Keogh                    Albentosa                New CB (Maybe A.Flint?)

          

                          New Right Midfielder              Hughes                         Thorne                            New Left Midfielder

                             

                                                                                                Ince

 

                                                                        New striker (Bent?)         C.Martin

[Shuff264]

Playing a 3-5-2 like that really requires wing backs rather than wingers, 3-5-2 with a midfield shape of a 4-2-3-1 could work with actually wingers

[Nuwtfly]

Playing a 3-5-2 like that really requires wing backs rather than wingers, 3-5-2 with a midfield shape of a 4-2-3-1 could work with actually wingers

​Totally agree. Maybe Fozzy and Christie could play those roles? Maybe worth bringing in better ones?

[DEL]

I don't want to see 3-5-2 ever again. 

[Dimmu]

3 at the back is demanding for the midfielders and I don't think we have players for it. Centrebacks shoud be mobile too and we have none of them. And those midfielders...at least four of them should be very hardworking and eager runners towards our own goal every time we lose ball, like for example Juventus has. Then it works fine.

I'd keep 4-3-3 but have chance the formula of attacking three. Free role to Martin, Bent/similar playing like he does and one big target/winger man who would have free, wing swapping role (rare, I know). We would get more triangles and occasional 3 against 2 situations with the cost of other wing. Better option than our poor crossing and should suit Bent better too.

And of course at least one another option, totally different than 4-3-3. More attacking.

[Shuff264]

​Totally agree. Maybe Fozzy and Christie could play those roles? Maybe worth bringing in better ones?

​Fozzy definitley could, former winger so knows what its about. Christie, maybe? Difficult to say

I quite like 3-5-2, gives strength in midfield and up front but takes alot of practise to get right

[RiddingsRam]

I stated in an earlier post , the way we pass and press other teams a diamond would suit us perfectly  

                            Grant

Christie.   Keogh.   Buxton.  Forsyth

                       Thorne

        Hughes.        Bryson 

                      Ince 

       Bent.          Martin 

Just an example team 

 

 

 

[kingsy1884]

We played 3-5-2 against Chesterfield for 45 mins and we looked terrible. It's an outdated formation that has no place in the modern game. Teams dont win trophies or promotion for that matter with this formation. You have 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 that's it really I am afraid.

[Uptherams]

Can people get real and stop thinking it is okay in a volatile championship league with 46 games in a season that it is okay to play exactly the same system for every last minute. We need a handful of tactical plans and we need to be capable of changing the system smoothly. The only certainty in our setup for me is 1 in goal two CB's and 2 full backs. Let's be clear, George Thorne isn't even a DM. I don't mean he isn't suited to the position. But that he plays so well in the middle and around the oppositions box that we can't really call him a DM. He is as central a central midfielder can get, besides someone who won't leave the center circle. 

 

[Ambitious]

Last season the system worked brilliantly because barely anyone got injured or we had at least cover in positions at all time. 

This season, despite expanding the squad, we've had so many injuries that our system has come under scrutiny and we've been shoving round pegs in square holes. 

I don't know what McClaren or the players have in mind but if we say for argument sake that we had the exact same squad we ended with - all fully fit - then I would look at taking the weight of the 'key' positions. 

In defence, we've got a good amount of options. I think the problem with the options is that they all seem to play a slightly different game to each other. Buxton and Keogh worked for a reason. It was well balanced and they looked after each other and knew each others game. I think both are good footballers and the distribution from the back from them two was better than anyone else in the league. Whitbread, too, is a good footballer and can definitely fill in the left side of the defence without disrupting the balance. We're then left with Shotton and Albentosa. I don't want to judge Albentosa just yet, he's going to get a good pre-season and then we will have a better idea of what he's about. Shotton on the other hand is not a footballer, first and foremost. I just think he was an ill-judged signing, purely because he doesn't fit into the team ethos. If you pick him then you're almost conceding your possession game. Albentosa, too, was poor in that regard but he came into a completely different system in a different country and came under pressure quickly. He's shown some good things and some bad things, I hope the bad things are more down to panic rather than anything else.

Christie is a good footballer, who clearly has confidence issues. I think he could be great for us but needs watching as he clearly can come off the rails. Sswankambo has done well for the U21s - so I hear - and has first team experience. He could well come into contention next season. 

Warnock, like Shotton, doesn't really fit in here. Forsyth is by far the better defender and I don't think eithers football ability is going to put them up for any awards. I was always dubious about Warnock, based on what I saw last season, but it seems my fears have been confirmed. 

I don't see what we would achieve with a back five with what we currently have. Forsyth and Christie would be my picks, with Buxton and Keogh in the middle.

If we're going to sign a left back then I would look to someone who can keep the ball better as it would help with our possession game. I doubt we'll find a better defender than Forsyth, though. In that regard, I think we're well covered.

At right back, I'd try and start a fresh with Christie. When he was at his best, he looked great going forwards and backwards. Earlier in the season he just seemed to have the stamina of a marathon runner - he could be up and down within the blink of an eye. 

At centre back, I think you need to keep that balance - we've seen what happens when we lose it. Albentosa is a potential replacement for Keogh, not Buxton. Just like Whitbread was a potential replacement for Buxton and not Keogh. I think we need a left sided centre back - Dunk would be ideal - and then we should be okay. Keogh and Dunk, Albentosa and Dunk, Albentosa and Buxton, Keogh and Buxton all have balance for me. Dunk will come from a team with the exact same ethos as us too.

The system for me, upto that point, doesn't change. 

In midfield, we rely on a defensive midfielder which is okay. However, I think we need to double up on that position and allow the other to attack more. I said in another thread that a 4-2-3-1 would work well with our current personnel and could look to give us another dimension from our 4-3-3. 

We need another defensive midfielder - absolutely key signing this summer. Thorne or Eustace won't be able to complete 46 games next season, so one more is absolutely vital. Joey Barton, if possible, would be a good shout. At least someone of his style is needed. A good long-range of passing with the intelligence to know where to be when other teams break. Hughes would be my other centre midfielder. 

In the centre of my attacking three, I would look at Martin as the mainstay there. He's a great goalscorer but his key to our game is his touch and his ability to bring players into the game. I think if he was worked to have a compass around him, i.e. four players at each point, then he would be able to shine in that role. Dawkins and Bryson could also play here. 

Outwide, we know what we need. Ince and Russell are perfect because both have the work rate and constantly offer the width we crave. 

Upfront, if we play Martin a little bit deeper, then we can bring in a 'poacher' to shine. Bent has proven what he can do in such a position, but if not him then there is others. 

My system, with the current personnel:

                               Grant

       Christie     Keogh    Buxton     Forsyth

                  Thorne            Hughes

  Russell                 Martin                       Ince

                                Bent

I think in this system, you have two very energetic wingers who have the fitness to cover and offer an option at every point around the pitch. You could definitely swap in Wisdom (please) with Christie and give that back four a little bit more solidarity. Thorne and Hughes - or at least two defensive minded midfielders - gives the system less strain on that one man holding that fort. Hughes plays that role for England but struggles on his own. Martin as I said can be given the ball and get it to players around him, so I would surround him with that option. 

Hendrick, Bryson and Dawkins could play in either Hughes or Martin's role. 

Shotton and Warnock, for me, just don't fit.  

 

[Bris Vegas]

All well and good having a system but you have to apply it correctly, both in and out of possession.

Last year it worked well because we used it efficiently. A fair few times this season, that hasn't been the case. Too controlled, too slow, too rigid, too static, too naive.

Bournemouth and Watford have played the same way throughout the whole campaign, and in the latters' case it has worked against them when playing against the better teams.

But that ruthless, borderline crazy attacking play has got them through.

[Posh Ram]

I don't think we currently have good enough centre halves or fullbacks to play 3-5-2. It relies on an excellent, organised defence.

4-2-3-1 is the way to go forward imo.

Grant

New RB---Albentosa---New CB---Forsyth

Thorne---New DM

Ince(?)---New AM (or Bryson)---Russell

Martin

 

Bench
Roos
Christie
Buxton
Eustace
Dawkins
New winger
Bent(?)

Such a change would probably have to be funded by the sales of Hughes, Hendrick and Keogh but it would make us much stronger defensively whilst retaining our attacking strength.

[Dimmu]

We played 3-5-2 against Chesterfield for 45 mins and we looked terrible. It's an outdated formation that has no place in the modern game. Teams dont win trophies or promotion for that matter with this formation. You have 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 that's it really I am afraid.

​Juventus has won about 4 in the row... so wouldn't call 3-5-2 ain't so oudated.

Same goes with 4-4-2, Atletico Madrid ain't that bad.

It's really not about the numbers, it's about style which suits players available.

[TroyDyer]

Top coaches/managers that win things are pioneers, not reactionaries. 

The new formation or adaptation of an existing formation might surprise people. 

"I evolve, but I don't revolve" - Alan Partridge 

[Albert]

Can't help but think that over the course of this season, the way we play became easier and easier for teams to play against. I first thought this when we played Boro for the first time. They didn't play particularly well, but they knew how to work our system to-a-tee, and we couldn't find a way to score. Without that Thorne role being filled, it just didn't work at times this season. Especially towards the end of the season.

A lot of people were saying when SMC first came in, that a lot of our success was due to the fact that we were doing something different to any other championship team. For this reason, I propose that maybe it's time to try something new again.

What would you guys go for if you could shake things up? And who would you bring in/chuck out to suit your new style?

I'd go for the 3-5-2, and it might look a little like this:

                                                                                      Grant (or a new keeper!)

                                                             

                                                              Keogh                    Albentosa                New CB (Maybe A.Flint?)

          

                          New Right Midfielder              Hughes                         Thorne                            New Left Midfielder

                             

                                                                                                Ince

 

                                                                        New striker (Bent?)         C.Martin

​No consistent width to make sure of having both Martin and Bent up top. Interestingly you don't even consider Forsyth despite that being his damn near perfect position, and much the same could be said about Christie. 

The interesting part is that we've played similar formations to that in the past, just not what it says on paper. The difference being that you'd have someone of the Eustace role where Albentosa (whilst I think Albentosa will look much better with a full preseason I can't really see him being much of a ball player). 

[RamNut]

The 433 could work but the way we play it, it is a recipe for disaster.

The central striker lacks support

the wingers don't cover the full backs.

the full backs push up and so don't cover the centre backs

the centre backs are too far apart

And somehow the presence of a DM is supposed to remedy all of this

the back four becomes a back two so we end up playing 2 3 2 3 or even 2 1 4 3 

the opposition let us push up into this suicidal formation and then hit us on the break

e.g. Forests winner

[MACKWORTHRAM]

We do have to be able to adapt and play different formations as injuries may require us to do so and how that game is going. 

For me my preferred formation would be 4-2-3-1 as I think it could make us more solid. 

Would love for us to go for Joey Barton and sit him alongside Thorne in that holding role. Barton is horrible. Which is exactly what we need.

I also think we need 3 top class strikers. Watford had it with Deeney, Ighalo and Vydra. 

If we sign Bent we still need one more imo. 

Someone like Dwight Gayle. 

[kingsy1884]

​Juventus has won about 4 in the row... so wouldn't call 3-5-2 ain't so oudated.

Same goes with 4-4-2, Atletico Madrid ain't that bad.

It's really not about the numbers, it's about style which suits players available.

Agreed Juve played the formation well but still changed to 4231 when required. Italian football is slow in the build up and so suits 352. The fast pace if British football leaves the 3 CBs very exposed.

no one for me I am afraid. I don't think our cbs are capable of playing it well anyway.