I reckon our new CDM backup will be Coutts

[Uptherams]

Played pretty much every game first season suggests otherwise! Good back up to have....

No it does not. Anyone who sat in front of Coutts in the second half of matches knows he was always dead on his legs. Time and again Clough would make a sub, Coutts should have been taken off and he replaces someone else. No surprise because Clough was absolutely useless when it came to substitutions. 

[Thierry Ennui]

I think the following is McClaren at the moment:

 

1) Hughes

2) Eustace

3) Hanson

4) Bunjaku

 

He'll start with Hughes against Rotherham, then depending on how we are doing bring on either Eustace (tight game) or Hanson (smashing them) for the last 20 minutes.

 

We may wait for a few games to pass before we decide if a CDM will be brought in.

[Srg]

What about Hanson away at Carlisle? I mean, it will be our 2nd game inside 3 days.

[Mafiabob]

No it does not. Anyone who sat in front of Coutts in the second half of matches knows he was always dead on his legs. Time and again Clough would make a sub, Coutts should have been taken off and he replaces someone else. No surprise because Clough was absolutely useless when it came to substitutions.

Yes it does.... Wonder how many times he was subbed at Preston and Peterborough.... Agree about substitutions though in previous years

[Tombo]

Already a lengthy conversation over this in a few other threads.

Ps disagree with the point. He has 0 defensive instincts. The most important factor of being a defensive midfielder.

How many times have you seen him play defensive midfield?

[AmericanRam]

I think before all is said and done a loan will be brought in.

[Albert]

How many times have you seen him play defensive midfield?

He spent a whole season doing defensive minded work to help out Brayford in 2012-13, so I'd hope he saw a lot of it. Strangely though he's made his mind up on him "not being defensive minded at all" and I guess the only thing that could change that is seeing him perform there.

I don't know if Coutts could perform that role, but I'm interesting to see if he can. He's probably gone on something like whoscored or FIFA and checked his tackling stats and attributes. I actually had a quick look on whoscored to see if I could get any stats on him, and the key thing to note was that he only started 3 games that season before the injury.

[Srg]

He spent a whole season doing defensive minded work to help out Brayford in 2012-13, so I'd hope he saw a lot of it. Strangely though he's made his mind up on him "not being defensive minded at all" and I guess the only thing that could change that is seeing him perform there.

I don't know if Coutts could perform that role, but I'm interesting to see if he can. He's probably gone on something like whoscored or FIFA and checked his tackling stats and attributes. I actually had a quick look on whoscored to see if I could get any stats on him, and the key thing to note was that he only started 3 games that season before the injury.

What are you talking about? I'm not a FIFA kid who doesn't ***** like that. I had proper discussion with you stating I disagree that it was defensive work he was doing to help Brayford out then you come out with this *****. You've gone down in my estimation. You was a respected poster who comes out with some good statistical analysis.

[Albert]

What are you talking about? I'm not a FIFA kid who doesn't ***** like that. I had proper discussion with you stating I disagree that it was defensive work he was doing to help Brayford out then you come out with this *****. You've gone down in my estimation. You was a respected poster who comes out with some good statistical analysis.

This was the discussion for anyone interested (irrelevant parts of my first post removed, you can read them by following the link to the quote):

Coutts may well be someone to try there. It was the more conservative defensive side of his play that allowed Brayford to be the player he was in his last season with us, he knows how to pass, tackle and the centre of midfield seemed to suit him. He may at least be an option and could slot into that role. Time will tell on that front.

<snip>

This all said, if Coutts wasn't up to the role (that is, not good at the role rather than not good enough for the club, he's good enough) and we were left with Eustace and Hanson, I'd be fine with it should McClaren be.

Should have probably added my opinion that Coutts would be terrible there.

Yes he has size, yes he can pass. Yet he has zero defensive instincts to play the role - arguably the most important thing required.

This is the exact same reason why Hughes shouldn't be considered and neither should Hendrick.

I'd love Hanson to step up but I think it's a bit soon to be entering the season with just him and Eustace.

It was exactly his defensive instincts that made him develop such a good partnership with Brayford. He mightn't be a fit for the role, but before seeing him there I wouldn't rule him out of it.

I do recall before Thorne was mentioned that he was specifically mentioned as an option there in the DET, so if they give him a go there, and he performs, I don't see why not giving it a go. He's stronger defensively than Hughes and Hendrick, and unlike them he's also not had a shot there, having been injured since we used this system.

Again, I wouldn't pen in him as being an option there, but I wouldn't rule him out either.

I'd disagree. He was so good with Brayford because he was not a winger who attacked to the touch line, he tucked in happily as he didn't have the pace. He slowed it down and allowed the overlap time after time. I don't think that it had much to do with him defending.

Fair enough, we'll see what comes of this all come opening day.

So basically we agreed to disagree in that regard, but I've continued to see you completely write off anyone at the club for the role for one reason or another, and simply keep repeating "Coutts can't defend" (or words to that effect), there's only so many times you can say this without bringing out some kind of statistics, data or at the very least examples to back it up. Tombo made the point, in that thread even, of bringing up an example of Coutts playing there, and him noting that he liked how he played there.

My point from the start was: "I'm not convinved, but he could play there. He was the defensive foil that allowed Brayford to attack so well when they were a key combination." while your's was essentially "I don't think Coutts can defend". You never backed it, you never tried to offer anything else, and at the end of the day I at the time could only come to the conclusion you were either checking it against something else, assuming or from a video game. To be completely honest the line wasn't a great one, and I'm sorry about that, it probably should have been more like: "It's been a while since any of us have seen Coutts play a run of games, so I'm not sure it's fair that any of us judge an attribute that isn't best highlighted by the position he played", but ultimately I was getting a bit wound up hearing the same thing about Coutts without any backing. I do appologize for a poor way of putting that though.

I would ask if you could find any examples, statistics or such for why you think Coutts has no defensive instincts, because at this point it comes down to our impressions of him. My position remains with an open mind to him playing the role, noting how he helped Brayford have more freedom, but wanting to see how he fared their, whilst yours is simply writing it off. Such a hard line to take surely would have something to back it.

[Day]

Coutts is an attacking midfielder, remember a interview with him and that's his favoured position. Asking for proof on why he can't play the CDM role is the same as asking why Dawkins, Ward and Russell can't play the position.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

Do we know how Coutts is doing in respect of his recovery from his hip flexor injury?

[Animal is a Ram]

"think Coutts could get a chance there. Hanson has looked good pre-season, from what I've seen."

 

Owen Bradley.

[May Contain Nuts]

Coutts played central midfield for Preston one season and picked up 14 yellow cards.

This suggests that he can't really tackle!

[Albert]

Coutts is an attacking midfielder, remember a interview with him and that's his favoured position. Asking for proof on why he can't play the CDM role is the same as asking why Dawkins, Ward and Russell can't play the position.

We've mooted Hanson for the role and he's a "centrehalf". Ward, Russell and co were strikers. Kris Commons played about any attacking position you could imagine for us. Hughes was first mentioned as a left midfielder, and has played most midfield and attacking positions, including as a defensive midfielder (one particularly impressive one coming on against Forest even). Keogh and Barker were rightbacks.

Thinking outside the club Arturo Vidal is an attacking midfielder for Chile, while normally seen as a defensive midfielder, and even started his career in defense from what I recall. Then there's former Australian Captain Lucas Neill, who made his Australia debut as a left winger, made his name as a rightback, and played pretty much the entirety of his long captaincy of Australia as a centrehalf.

Obsession with positions isn't the question here. Coutts has been mooted as a candidate by more than just this board. I'm not convinced, but I certainly think it's an interesting option. I see no reason to rule it out at this time.

Coutts played central midfield for Preston one season and picked up 14 yellow cards.

This suggests that he can't really tackle!

John Eustace last season: 10 yellows in 2350 minutes (235 minutes per card)

Paul Coutts the season you mention: 13 cards in 3676 minutes (283 minutes per card)

Still did better than Eustace did last season in that regard. That role is one that tends to pick up cards though.

Not really a great metric though, the key is how he could fit this particular role, and at this time we don't really know.

[jagerbob]

This thread is astounding.

Thank f*** Maclaren is picking the team ahead of these fans who must have short memories.

 

Under both Clough and Maclaren hughes, hendrick and probably coutts have been tried in the CDM position and failed miserably.

 

Until someone else comes into the club, Eustace is nailed on to start and so he should.

I dont care about mobility age etc, he can play the position whereas the other midfielders mentioned simply cannot.

They haven t got a clue!!!

[San Fran Van Rams]

Eustace will start as CDM against Rotheram, why would it be any different? Hes played there during pre-season and did so for the majority of last season. How is one summer going to change if Eustace can play there or not? I can't see him getting that much worse in such a short period of time. Yes he is fairly old (34) but hes still got a couple of years left in him yet...

 

On a different note, why can't Keogh be brought into the CDM role if Eustace can't play 90 mins and Hanson is too inexperienced to play there. Keogh can pass, is obviously defensively minded, good in the air and does the odd driving run. Plus, as he's a central defender, if one of the CBs go on one of their driving runs, he would be the perfect person to fill that gap. 

 

My concern is if Eustace gets injured, the 4141/4123 formation (depending on how you see it) would be very difficult to maintain and we may slip back into a standard 442/4411...

[Tombo]

He spent a whole season doing defensive minded work to help out Brayford in 2012-13, so I'd hope he saw a lot of it. Strangely though he's made his mind up on him "not being defensive minded at all" and I guess the only thing that could change that is seeing him perform there.

I don't know if Coutts could perform that role, but I'm interesting to see if he can. He's probably gone on something like whoscored or FIFA and checked his tackling stats and attributes. I actually had a quick look on whoscored to see if I could get any stats on him, and the key thing to note was that he only started 3 games that season before the injury.

He also played a holding midfield role when he was at Preston I believe.

[Srg]

I don't feel like I need to prove statistics or whatever, because believe it or not, football is not purely played on paper.

 

I provided my views, and provided my reasoning. We agreed to disagree. Then you come out with rubbish about FIFA.

 

You just made yourself look silly in the process of trying to belittle my opinion.

 

I have no objection to anyone believing he can play there at all, you all have your reasons. I choose to disagree for my own, as do some other posters. That is the nature of football and also the reason for a forum to discuss those views.

[Albert]

I don't feel like I need to prove statistics or whatever, because believe it or not, football is not purely played on paper.

 

I provided my views, and provided my reasoning. We agreed to disagree. Then you come out with rubbish about FIFA.

 

You just made yourself look silly in the process of trying to belittle my opinion.

 

I have no objection to anyone believing he can play there at all, you all have your reasons. I choose to disagree for my own, as do some other posters. That is the nature of football and also the reason for a forum to discuss those views.

The point of mentioning FIFA or whoscored is that it's meant to allude (note that I never said you had, but rather "He's probably gone on something like") to the idea that the opinion is based on something spurious or lacking in backing, a fairly crude manner in doing so, and quite frankly a bit to aggressive for the tone I'd rather keep. Again, I was in a bit of a bad mood, and it really wasn't the right way to put the point, and I shouldn't have included you as part of it. I also must apologize for offending you here, you see to really have taken it to heart.

On that though, I get that we do get strong impressions on players, but ultimately we seemed to be discussing the issue from the same set of information, how he did on the right of midfield, but read it different. However, despite our differing conclusions, I have to be honest and just say I'm slightly baffled that you can go from that to "there's no way", rather than a more moderate position such as "I don't think he could, but we'll wait and see". It's one thing to say we can agree to disagree, but it was a very strong assertion you made.

As for not backing this with evidence, fair enough, the issue is just making sure that points aren't spurious or a bit weak based simply on impressions. The game isn't played on paper, but there's a lot of good numbers to consider in retrospect that can in many cases offer some insight, considered thoroughly of course.

Again, I'm note sure if he's capable of the position, but there's nothing we've seen that really suggests that he isn't. As Tombo put it, he last season played one game there, and did okay, on the contrary to many saying "he's been tried there and failed". There seems to be this idea that he played wide on the right, so he must be nothing but an attacking midfielder, and hence won't be capable. We don't know that, and we won't until we see what McClaren does.

The real concern I'd have though is that even if Coutts is capable there, will he be fit enough to get some good game time preseason.

[Tombo]

If you look at the Q&A summary thread, it appears McClaren could give Coutts a chance there. He's certainly among the candidates to take up that role.