Can we improve with 4 more signings

[midtableforever]

Shackell is commonly regarded as a good player by most fans, we liked him and we wish we could have paired Shackell and Keogh. He went for either financial or squad discipline/morale reasons, or a combination of the two.

 

Theo has had nowt but abuse since he got here, and now yo're claiming he was some demi-god until that idiot Clough got rid of him (and he never got a game after asking for a move).

 

Bailey we all liked, but most accept now that he wouldn't get a game ahead of Hughes, Hendrick, and Bryson - CLough has said he would have kept him as a squad player but it wouldn't be fair on Bails, plus he might as well re-invest the wage elsewhere.

 

WIth Legzdins it was all NLN and another Burton signing moan, grumble, until we found he could actually play a bit - but not consistently enough to claim the shirt as his own.

 

Cywka was a player most liked and a majority disliked the way he was bombed out. In view of his less than stellar career at Barnsley since, maybe Clough was right?

 

SO where does this idea come from that we are fickle in our view of players, or follow blindly whatever the message is from PPS? 

Weak argument with no substance.

 

We support our players while they've got a Ram on the chest, or are supposed to - and whatever **** was, it's no way to refer to a Derby player who manifestly does his best.

 

 

 

 

Bywater's a psycho and didn;t fit the squad ethos. Addison lost his mobility after the injury, Maguire wouldn't fit to the team plan, and we all loved Commons, we all wanetd him to stay, we offered him massive money by CHamp standards, but couldn't compete with Celtic. Where on earth is the gripe?

What a load of ******. Have you read this forum?

 

Shackell - "****** 100 yards hollywood passes, can't defend, Keogh is better".

 

Theo - some time ago "Theo, Theo, Theo, bring Theo, Theo, Theo" chants from the stands. Now - "he is useless, gives nothing to the team".

 

Cywka - " no end product, disappointing player".

 

e.t.c. 

[WilkoRam]

It's emotional extremes for the last 4 posts or so. All I'm reading there is that as soon as we let someone go everyone says they're ****, it's not true.

 

Fielding WAS the answer to our goalkeeping problems. The goalkeeping problems we had when we signed him are different to the goalkeeping 'problems" we have now. Now we're looking for someone better than Frank, what's the issue exactly?

 

Frank played 16 games this season you say? How many mistake can you count? I'd say at least 4. I love Frank and have been pretty vocal about his character but if he's making too many mistakes, he's making too many mistakes. Doesn't mean I hate him or think he's crap.

 

Let me turn it around as well, because I really don't get it. If there is a better player available would you prefer our manager stubbornly sticks with those who he's signed, even if they're not good enough to get us top 6. Even though some of you are saying he should be fired if he doesn't make us top 6.

 

He should keep Frank and Adam and Tomasz and Chris and Miles and James and get the sack?

 

I've seen so many posts on here, some of them from you guys above this post, saying we need to sign better if we're to improve.

 

Now that we're trying to sign better, it's a bad thing why?

 

No one is saying Frank, or bailey, or theo is garbage or Cywka or Commons, just that we need to look for better, how are we supposed to look for better if we don't sign different players?

 

Also, Martin doesn't have to better than Sammon to improve on what we've got, he has to better than theo or nathan. He is.

 

Waghorn, Vaughan, Baptiste are all still potential targets Ramnut, Eustace is a bit old now but might have done a job when we should have signed him, Again I don't get the criticism.

Firstly my point is Grant isn't an improvement on Fielding. If we had signed some amazing keeper I'd be more than happy that he came in and Frank had to go but I see it as being anything than an unnecessary like for like swap. So to make it very very clear, signing better isn't a bad thing, but I don't see it as better. This isn't a "I love you Frank" post, more of a "if money is tight and we are saying we're signing 6 players then a keeper who isn't an improvement on what we have wouldn't be the top of my shopping list or even in the 6"

And also, as I said above, I'm not saying Martin has to be better than Sammon as long as he was different to Sammon. No point having two similar strikers up top. Neither play off the shoulder, neither has great pace. Both seem to be used to hold the ball up so we have two strikers the same. It's like having Heskey and Kuqi up front but saying that's ok as they're both better than than a quick striker we have. So he may add an option but he's not an improvement, in my eyes.

[needles]

What a load of ******. Have you read this forum?

 

Shackell - "****** 100 yards hollywood passes, can't defend, Keogh is better".

 

Theo - some time ago "Theo, Theo, Theo, bring Theo, Theo, Theo" chants from the stands. Now - "he is useless, gives nothing to the team".

 

Cywka - " no end product, disappointing player".

 

e.t.c. 

You'll find a post in support of every point of view on here, if you want to be selective. I don;t quite know what point you're making, but I'll have a go...

 

If you are seriously saying that Theo (for instance) was universally admired then you're plainly wrong. The truth (pretty well universally acknowledged I think) is that Theo is a limited player who was pacy and wholehearted, worked defenders and had a knack of scoring goals, but was technically poor. He was loved for his enthusiasm, and roundly moaned at from the stands for his frequent errors of control.

 

The problem came when he started to believe he was better than he is, and stopped doing what had made him a player in the first place, the Twitter thing before Burnley was it(?), discipline slipping. Suddenly he can't get a game and asks to leave on loan. We all miss the goals and the pace (perfect example was his goal against Blackpool at PPS), but we don't miss the control. For £150k from Millwall reserves, I'd say good signing, thanks and goodbye.

 

We accept his time is up, and move on, hopefully to a player with the same work-rate and pace, but better technical skills. Like Vaughan maybe? Or Fryatt?

 

There will be a wide range of views on Theo, but I bet that sums it up for the majority somewhere in the middle ground.

[needles]

Re: WIlkoRam on Grant - You migh not think Grant is any better than Fielding, but Clough does and he's acted. He generally gets them right. more often than not. Further evidence is that he's a prime age for a keeper and experienced, taller than our lads (better on crosses?) and Burnley rated him above Charlie Austin for POTY. Respect your opinion, but we'll have to wait and see now, I don't see it as a stick to beat the club with at all.

[eddie]

So you think we should sell players first before bringing new players in?

What would you think if we sold our two keepers and then failed to get another decent keeper in?

I seem to remember the criticism was the other way round last year when we sold Shackell first and some were calling Keogh a desparation signing.

 

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

 

Haters gonna hate

 

etc

[WilkoRam]

I'm not trying to beat the club or Nigel with a stick and I said, either in this thread or another, can't remember, that so far the two haven't improved us but I hope the other 4 will. If those other 4 players are in areas we need to improve. It's still May so I'm by no means trying to say things are bad for next season and we've done poorly transfer wise and neither will I before I see how the team plays with the new signings next season. Doesn't mean I'll agree with every transfer though or that I'm saying they're bad players, just not the type I see taking us forward.

Also the "he generally gets it right" is a can of worms that could be (and has been) debated at length with no agreement or conclusion.

[needles]

Needles, I'm not trying to speak for either of the two you quoted but I think it's more aimed at those who talked up the ability of the likes of Theo, etc in the face of the criticism only to then say "oh yes he was rubbish" when he's then frozen out and replaced. It's like if Sammon then gets frozen out next season and sold. You could say the same, that he got nothing but abuse whilst here, however there are those who claim he's a good signing etc who would then be saying "oh he wasn't very good" or "didn't kick on", "Nigel didn't see an improvement", etc.

Now if those players were replaced by better players who improved us you could understand an argument of "he was ok but we've replaced him in order to move forward" but when you look at the 8 players we signed last season how many improved us?

 

Coutts improved us, Sammon I haven't given up on at all, Keogh improved us.

 

Most of the rest were development squad players or cover like OC.

 

If we're expecting Nige to pick up ready made Prem players in one go from the pool he;s having to fish in, we're going to be disappointed.

 

I'd ask the question the other way around - how many who've left would improve us now?

 

I'll give you Commons and Shackell. The reasons for both leaving have been done to death, but Commons we couldn't have done more to keep, Shackell I liked and rated but Keogh I rate slightly higher, plus he's supposedly better in the dressing room.

[G STAR RAM]

I'm not trying to beat the club or Nigel with a stick and I said, either in this thread or another, can't remember, that so far the two haven't improved us but I hope the other 4 will. If those other 4 players are in areas we need to improve. It's still May so I'm by no means trying to say things are bad for next season and we've done poorly transfer wise and neither will I before I see how the team plays with the new signings next season. Doesn't mean I'll agree with every transfer though or that I'm saying they're bad players, just not the type I see taking us forward.

Also the "he generally gets it right" is a can of worms that could be (and has been) debated at length with no agreement or conclusion.

 

How can you say they haven't improved us?!

 

Our keepers cost us a lot of points last season in my opinion and I am guessing Grant must have been doing something right to beat Austin to POTY.

 

Martin never impressed me much last season but now he has had a bit of game time and with a pre season under his belt he may come back a much better player.

 

To say they have not improved us is a completely substanceless comment and could only possibly proved after they have actually played for us.

[Dimmu]

CB, LB, FC but what about that fourth signing?

 

Clough went for Burke but I'm not sure is that area he is really looking to strenghten? Burke would fit into "better what we got and free, let's try to get him"-category too.

[WilkoRam]

How can you say they haven't improved us?!

Martin never impressed me much last season

That's how. I'm basing it on what I saw you're basing it on the hope that a pre-season will improve him, which one of our arguments are without substance? Mine that goes off how he played or yours that goes on how you hope he might?

Name me a keeper who hasn't cost his team points. De Gea, Hart, Lloris, Scezney, Reina, etc all have. Keepers cost teams point due to the nature of their role. Find a keeper who doesn't make mistakes and you've probably found one who doesn't play. I expect Grant to make mistakes and when he does I won't be calling him a poor keeper and ignore everything he's done previously which is what we currently appear to be doing with the keepers we have.

You seem to think I'm saying Grant isn't a good keeper, I'm not, I'm just saying a keeper wasn't on mine, or anyone else's list of positions that needed strengthening. I may be wrong but all the starting XI's for next season that were posted about didn't start with "New GK" I'd go as far as to say it was an area most fans felt we were ok with and had competition. So if we were to buy a new one I'd expect that new one to be significantly better. It's like having Lennon and then signing Walcott and selling Lennon when you have other areas of the team that need work. Any improvement is minimal.

But this is now becoming a keeper thread rather than a "can we improve with 4 more" thread. And we can, just depends who they are

[Stedcfc]

That's how. I'm basing it on what I saw you're basing it on the hope that a pre-season will improve him, which one of our arguments are without substance? Mine that goes off how he played or yours that goes on how you hope he might?

Name me a keeper who hasn't cost his team points. De Gea, Hart, Lloris, Scezney, Reina, etc all have. Keepers cost teams point due to the nature of their role. Find a keeper who doesn't make mistakes and you've probably found one who doesn't play. I expect Grant to make mistakes and when he does I won't be calling him a poor keeper and ignore everything he's done previously which is what we currently appear to be doing with the keepers we have.

You seem to think I'm saying Grant isn't a good keeper, I'm not, I'm just saying a keeper wasn't on mine, or anyone else's list of positions that needed strengthening. I may be wrong but all the starting XI's for next season that were posted about didn't start with "New GK" I'd go as far as to say it was an area most fans felt we were ok with and had competition. So if we were to buy a new one I'd expect that new one to be significantly better. It's like having Lennon and then signing Walcott and selling Lennon when you have other areas of the team that need work. Any improvement is minimal.

But this is now becoming a keeper thread rather than a "can we improve with 4 more" thread. And we can, just depends who they are

I think the point your missing is that Grant was free and we could potentially get 500k or more for Ledgzkins and Fielding.

 

Clough even said that the Grant opportunity was too good to miss rather than we wanted to improve the area. If Grant even just matches the performance of our keepers this season and we manage to sell the other 2 its a good bit of business.

[G STAR RAM]

That's how. I'm basing it on what I saw you're basing it on the hope that a pre-season will improve him, which one of our arguments are without substance? Mine that goes off how he played or yours that goes on how you hope he might?

Name me a keeper who hasn't cost his team points. De Gea, Hart, Lloris, Scezney, Reina, etc all have. Keepers cost teams point due to the nature of their role. Find a keeper who doesn't make mistakes and you've probably found one who doesn't play. I expect Grant to make mistakes and when he does I won't be calling him a poor keeper and ignore everything he's done previously which is what we currently appear to be doing with the keepers we have.

You seem to think I'm saying Grant isn't a good keeper, I'm not, I'm just saying a keeper wasn't on mine, or anyone else's list of positions that needed strengthening. I may be wrong but all the starting XI's for next season that were posted about didn't start with "New GK" I'd go as far as to say it was an area most fans felt we were ok with and had competition. So if we were to buy a new one I'd expect that new one to be significantly better. It's like having Lennon and then signing Walcott and selling Lennon when you have other areas of the team that need work. Any improvement is minimal.

But this is now becoming a keeper thread rather than a "can we improve with 4 more" thread. And we can, just depends who they are

 

Martin was obviously not match fit when he joined us so I think basing any conclusion, on how good he will be for us in the long term, on last seasons loan spell would be a bit unfair.

 

I think a lot of people agree that the keeper position needed strengthening but probably thought with our lack of resources it would not be the first area we looked to strengthen. As I said I think the goalkeepers cost us a lot of points last season not just the odd one or two through run of the mill mistakes.

[Mostyn6]

I'm surprised people don't rate Martin, in fact, I am shocked.

 

Are Derby fans now so alien to seeing that bit of technical ability and footballing intelligence that they automatically dismiss it!

 

Martin will probably be Clough's best signing after Brayford.

 

There's a lot in this thread about fans being fickle and making soon to arrive players sound like world-beaters, and departing/departed players sound like conmen not fit to play the game!

 

Martin arrived at roughly the same time our winless run stopped. Martin played at the same time we won 5 games out of what 8?

 

Credit where it's due, even if you cannot see the wood for the trees.

 

Martin = inspired signing.... well Done Nigel.

[May Contain Nuts]

Back briefly to the keepers...

 

Clough didn't actually say (and neither did anyone here) that our keepers weren't good keepers.

 

He has in fact (consistently) said the opposite, that they are both 'number ones', both capable Championship keepers, both coming to the end of their contracts, but neither being happy (or willing?) to be sat on the bench.

 

Besides, people within football will know the qualities and downfalls of both our keepers, I don't think Nigel Clough pointing out a few mistakes in a post-season interview/review will have the slightest bearing on whether another club wants to sign a player or not.

 

One of our options was to go into next season, rotate the goalkeepers to keep them happy, but continue to struggle to define either of them as our number one, the indecision could well lead to us losing them both on free transfers at the end of the season and leave us scrambling around looking for a new keeper next summer - that's not a guaranteed outcome but it would appear to be the one the club has decided not to risk.

 

A solid back 5 needs to be settled, it needs consistency, all this indecision could cost us, so...

 

Another option was to do as we have done, Grant became available, he wanted to come, Clough rates him - would we have been able to pick up a keeper as good as Grant again at the end of next season?

[needles]

Martin does have a level of ability to deal with the ball that no-one else in the squad has. Someone called him a poor mans Berbatov and I quite liked that. He's missing a bit of dynamism though, but I guess if he had that he'd be a Prem player. Hopefull on him rather than overwhelmed.

 

Mostyn made a good point about the points return since he signed too. It's not complete co-incidence.

 

I'd say the squad is improved by replacing Tyson with Martin.

[CornwallRam]

I'm unconvinced by Martin at present, but I think that he could go on to be a very good player.

 

Now, I don't claim to be an expert and clearly someone with much greater knowledge than me disagrees - which means that I'm probably wrong, but I'd say Martin's problem is that someone has told him he's a second striker, not a centre-forward.

 

IMO he is too slow and not tricky enough to play as far back as he does. If he decided to play on the shoulder of the last defender he'd be excellent. He is good in the air, has superb control and some finishing ability. He's strong, can shield the ball and create chances for others. I really believe that he has the makings of a top centre forward, especially if we can get a pacey goal poacher to partner him.

 

He'll never chase around like Sammon, but I'm not altogether convinced that the benefits of doing so outweigh the costs i.e. Sammon is often missing when the ball is centred and usually appears too exhausted to summon that burst of energy needed to attack the ball in the last 15 minutes of a game, although he does create the odd opening by forcing defenders into errors. I think that Martin would make a much more effective centre-forward than Sammon does, despite his lethargic style.

[Mostyn6]

Wonder why Norwich didn't want him. He's slow and I'm going to remember this tribute LOL

 

Almost EVERY single player that ever played the game wasn't wanted by someone at some point in their career!

[Mostyn6]

I'm unconvinced by Martin at present, but I think that he could go on to be a very good player.

 

Now, I don't claim to be an expert and clearly someone with much greater knowledge than me disagrees - which means that I'm probably wrong, but I'd say Martin's problem is that someone has told him he's a second striker, not a centre-forward.

 

IMO he is too slow and not tricky enough to play as far back as he does. If he decided to play on the shoulder of the last defender he'd be excellent. He is good in the air, has superb control and some finishing ability. He's strong, can shield the ball and create chances for others. I really believe that he has the makings of a top centre forward, especially if we can get a pacey goal poacher to partner him.

 

He'll never chase around like Sammon, but I'm not altogether convinced that the benefits of doing so outweigh the costs i.e. Sammon is often missing when the ball is centred and usually appears too exhausted to summon that burst of energy needed to attack the ball in the last 15 minutes of a game, although he does create the odd opening by forcing defenders into errors. I think that Martin would make a much more effective centre-forward than Sammon does, despite his lethargic style.

 

One thing about this team, they do as instructed or they are bombed-out!

[WilkoRam]

Having a settled No1 is great, but why did that have to be a new player?

Anyway, rather than going around in circles I'll just make it clear. I'm not moaning about the signing of Grant just saying I don't think it's a move forward. I don't see him being an improvement on Fielding, just my opinion. I'm not disappointed by it, but I'm not thinking "well that's improved out back 5" - good luck to Grant, liked him when he was here and he went on to get good reviews at Wednesday and Burnley. Think we're getting rid of someone just as good and has the potential to be better is all.

As for Martin, again nothing against the guy, liked him when he first came but I don't see him as needed as I don't like the paring of him and Sammon. Him or Sammon then ok, but again that's not improving the first XI. It's giving squad depth but not an improvement in first XI for me. Sign a good striker with pace you plays on the shoulder of the defenders, a good winger, also with pace, a CB and Forsyth and I wouldn't be upset at all, I'd be more than happy.

[WilkoRam]

One thing about this team, they do as instructed or they are bombed-out!

more accurately they're publicly criticised after being repeatedly told for a season to do something and not doing it, then bombed-out.

(Please don't jump all over this post, it was just a joke)