basilrobbie

The four clubs that eventually go down will include at least three with money and / or capacity problems, I think.  At the other end, I only see one "big" name being promoted, and it could well be none. 

A Division with Bolton, Charlton, Ipswich, Pompey, Sunderland and the Wendies in it is going to be tough. Harder still if you have to give them all a 15 point start. If that is the deduction you get, you will need to win around 65 points to be sure of staying up, and around 90 to make the top six. That's a big ask. I'd see promotion back into the CC a 2-3 year project at least, if it were my club.

Mods, please move/merge or whatever as you see fit.

I saw the thread on the Rams Trust but as it was on another board I can't post on it. I wanted to offer some views though.

I don't know anyone at RT, although on behalf of my Supporters Trust (Blackpool) I did reach out to them recently to offer any help they feel we can usefully offer.

The point of this though is that I was struck by how many people didn't seem to know what marked a Trust out as being different and the number who thought an Internet forum could be a substitute.

Trusts are democratic, for one thing, and if you are a Member you can vote for who represents you and have an input into the policies of the organisation. If your Trust is like ours it is an organisation with clear objectives, a constitution and is committed to reinvesting any money it raises for the betterment of Members in particular and the fan base in general. Plus, as Jim pointed out, you have a conduit into your club, a sounding board for the Administrator and an organisation that can have an input into national policy (like the fan-led review). All supported by hundreds of hours of mostly unpaid effort by volunteers - not bad for £2.

Can any Internet forum match that? I doubt it. Anyone posting on here speaks for themselves, and nobody else. It's a useful barometer of a slice of supporter opinion - but only a slice. If your fan base is like ours then a large proportion never post on here and I'll wager a fair number have never heard of it.

More importantly, there will never be a more important time to be involved in and have a voice in your Trust. I think Tracey Crouch will draw back from insisting on mandatory supporter representation on club Boards. But I do think she will be bullish on creating golden shares for supporters as a form of veto on some issues. And that will almost certainly be vested in the Trust.

I've no idea of the history of RT, how it runs or anything else. But it is going to be the pre-eminent vehicle for representation as we go forward, and if you're not a Member you can't affect what it does.

Robbie

18 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Sorry, I didn't realise you knew Rick and his inner thoughts. 

I base my thinking on the observation of obvious dichotomies like the EFL not having a defined standard for player amortisation, yet the EFL under Rick Parry charging Derby for using a form of amortisation that wasn't proscribed and whose compliance with FRS102 is subject to debate in accounting circles, and said R Parry esq then claiming that player amortisation was not the driver for pursuing charges against Derby whilst simultaneously pursuing charges against Derby based on requiring Derby to resubmit their P&S calculations on the basis of the EFL's non-prescribed amortisation method, whilst also stating his determination to have player amortisation removed from P&S calculations. 

Can you see the issue here? 

I can see AN issue, but maybe not the one you see.

In Blackpool's case, one of the issues was that the EFL didn't know their own rules on retrospective application of the Owners & Directors Test, and falsely claimed that they couldn't be applied in the case of a rape conviction. It was simple incompetence, and I believe that the Head of Governance then may be the same guy who is advising Parry now. I wouldn't have much faith in his ability, but I don't think there is anything sinister about it. The issue for me is that they aren't up to the regulatory job, and don't fancy doing it anyway. 

2 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Belive me if Derby County were to collapse into liquidation and be banished from the EFL, it would cause a major public enquiry.

So it should. But that would be because the system is fatally flawed, owners behave very stupidly to try to mitigate the worst aspects of it and the EFL has neither the will nor the wherewithal to deal with them or the EPL. No conspiracy, just a catalogue of incompetence.

I don't think Morris was the worst there has been. He's pretty benign when measured against Oyston, Dale, Anderson or the chancer who got hold of WIgan. But he is definitely one of the clumsiest.

7 minutes ago, Crewton said:

But Rick needs the collapse of a Big Club in the EFL to prove his point. Why people can't see this, I don't know.

I'm sorry, but that is completely paranoid rubbish. There is no "point" to prove - the entire world knows that many of the owners of Championship clubs behave like financially incontinent lemmings. And it was a "point" long before Parry happened along.

6 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

It's perfectly possible to simultaneously believe (as I do) that Mel Morris has run the club in a catastrophically awful way, that the EFL have handled their various interactions with us in a pathetically useless way, and that Maguire is an attention-seeking muppet that doesn't seem to know half as much as he thinks he does.

That's the best answer I have seen. 

I do see that people can, and do, hold all these views at once. But without Morris's behaviour there would be no interest from Maguire or regulatory action from the EFL. All roads lead back to him. He bet YOUR ranch on black and came up red. 

If we want to truly widen the argument, Morris would not have behaved as he did if the distribution of TV monies were not so grossly inequitable. And that is a crime that a lot of people had a hand in committing.

3 minutes ago, OohMartWright said:

He is neither objective nor professional. The club's auditors and the Independent Panel (which included a qualified accountant) both confirmed that the club's amortisation policy was compliant with FRS 102. Maguire sought to make a name for himself by repeatedly pointing out that the policy was slightly different to that used by other clubs and inferring that we were cheating. The EFL saw this as an opportunity to get back at Mel Morris and took it to the Panel, only for us to be exonerated (save for a need to expand the notes in the accounts). Unwilling to lose face in this matter, the EFL appealed the decision (so much for the independent review process) and set up another panel with no accountants asked to rule on an accounting matter which then (unsurprisingly) found us guilty. It is this which infuriates most of our fans.

As for the stadium sale, this was a one-off opportunity to realise the increase in value of the stadium to ease the FFP situation. The valuation was professionally obtained, and both submitted to and adjusted in accordance with the stipulations of the EFL, before the transaction went ahead. Whether or not the transaction was in the best interests of the club is a moot point, but it was categorically NOT cheating. That has not stopped the media and the EFL trying to smear it as such. For the EFL to bring a disciplinary charge against the club for carrying out a transaction which they had not only sanctioned, but which had actually been adjusted in accordance with their stipulations, beggars belief and can only have been motivated by vindictiveness.

For all of their stated desire for fair play, we have seen precious little of it from the EFL so far. They have an opportunity to redeem themselves if they give the Administrators' appeal against the 12 point deduction a fair hearing. We shall see.

So, according to you :

1. KM points out a demonstrable fact

2. the EFL tries to exploit it

3. the EFL then tries to rig the process

and yet you still blame him?

As for the rest of it, in my view separating off your main asset as a device to get round rules governing spending is not sensible, acceptable or anything other than an existential threat to the long term health of the club. And Mel Morris should be ashamed of himself for doing it. As an outsider, I find the fact that there isn't more anger about that very odd. I obviously need to stick around to improve my understanding. ?

5 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

If you don't understand the vitriol being directed towards someone with a view that flies in the face of populist opinion then you haven't been on this forum long enough.

Fair point. I actually think the EFL are as much to blame for this as anyone ; it seems to have been going on for ever and that is largely their fault because of the way they dither and because of their (very) shaky grasp of their own rules. But your club's reputation suffers at the same time because you also get "blamed".

I just think Maguire is the wrong target. He's far more objective than most.

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

FFS if he can foretell such events ask him for the Euro Lottery numbers will you?! What a ducking utter exceedingly annoying prat.

The other way of looking at it is that he is relatively objective and professionally well placed to form judgements. How many fans can say the same?

I don't really understand the vitriol, given that through his Podcast he does rather more to inform you an your own club management has historically done. He's also better placed to perceive how your club are regarded than you are (understandably, it's not a criticism per se). Do you not think that there is a strong element of you not wanting to hear the message?

The more we hear from this administrator, the more I worry. Can they not just get on and do their job discreetly? The people who did the job at Wigan were exactly the same.

I hope for your sake as fans that the points situation gets sorted quickly. These interminable delays and appeals and counter-appeals do the club no favours.

12 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

As to why the Efl are picking on Derby , the simple answer is they aren’t. 
 

they made a similar mess of Bury .. the best that can be said about that is that it was a swift end for Bury rather than a death by a thousand cuts .

 

whatever your views on Mel Morris , ( which I don’t share by the way) the first objection is why should the club suffer for the wrongdoing of the owner? Precisely the issue that As you say true football fans would understand regardless of who they support… which is why Derby fans sympathised with you over oyston.

 

but despite my first statement I think Derby fans feel aggrieved that the club are wrongly accused of things that were perfectly fine ( eg stadium sale) , things like amortisation are minor things at worst that Efl wanted points deduction .. and relegation .., for yet the independent panel thought only a fine was appropriate . 
 

so at every turn Efl seem to want to beat us up and max out on punishments. 
 

all for what? A professional disagreement between accountants over amortisation policy, and a disagreement between another set of accountants over what has caused our latest financial problems? Is it COVID or our historic overspending? 
 

why should the club , and the fans be punished for any of this?

You make some interesting points Pete, as does Crewton.

Starting with your last point, in a perfect world the regulatory regime would be far more forensic and targeted than it is. It is one of the reasons why Tracey Crouch's work is so important ; the framework we have is not fit for purpose. And that is compounded by the breathtaking ineptitude of the body that has control over it. This is where I depart from Crewton - I completely understand his frustrations with the EFL (more on that in a minute). But I think it is just incompetence, rather than anything more sinister.

I actually think your club is suffering more than it has to because the EFL knows its regulatory powers are under threat. At my club, our frustration towards them stemmed from what we saw as a wilful refusal to take ANY action, despite overwhelming evidence that they should. I think the pendulum has swung in that they are now trying to be proactive without having the skills wherewithal and general political nous to do that properly.  They are struggling to show that they are relevant - but that ship has long sailed, I hope.

I think what is really needed now is a rapid and clear conclusion, for everybody's sake. Your new owners might be unknown, at present, but every day that this lingers on makes their job harder when they come in.  And I think your administrators should have considerations like that at the front of their minds, and be acting accordingly. I have my doubts about them doing this as they should.

Crewton, I don't feel berated, I feel as though we are having a civilised discussion from very different viewpoints.  Your case feels especially poignant for me ; I started watching live football in 1968 and what I loved about that era was that provincial clubs like Derby County could legitimately aspire to be Champions of England. I watched you win 3-2 at Bloomfield Road in your promotion season in my early days and it was completely enthralling. Memories like that count for a lot.

2 minutes ago, angieram said:

You're starting to annoy me now with your pious outside observations, which are neither accurate nor timely.

Nothing happening in Blackpool?

Sorry Angie, I try to be dispassionate, rather than pious. I'd be absolutely no good at it. ?

3 hours ago, Crewton said:

The EFL wanted to make an example of Derby, to set down a marker and head off potential legal action from Middlesbrough and possibly others over their handling of the whole FFP monitoring process, and to give substance to Rick Parry's reforming agenda, and were disappointed with the sanctions applied by the tribunal. Hence their subsequent attempts to strangle the club with restrictions hastily introduced in June of this year and their desire to force the club to accept further points deductions by "negotiation" rather than go through another uncertain tribunal process. 

Stop kidding yourselves that these people are on the side of Derby fans - they're not. 

I think this is a bit paranoid, if you don't mind me saying so.

I fully agree with you that the EFL seek to deflect blame for, and attention from, whatever poo show they happen to be presiding over at any one time.  It's a technique that was developed under Harvey, along with unconscionable delay, in an attempt to cover the fact that they aren't up to the regulatory aspects of their job and - culturally - aren't all that keen on doing them either. When Tracey Crouch recommends that they lose all responsibility for regulatory maters, I think their Board will be secretly relieved.

But incompetence is a long way from the kind of calculated poohousery that you are accusing them of. They may listen far too much to the likes of Gibson, but as a glorified shop steward they are obliged to listen to all their Members, and not just some of them. It's the Achilles Heel in the way they have chosen to set themselves up as competition organisers (Yes, I know) and revenue generators (not very good at that either). Had Harvey still been CEO, I'd have been far more sympathetic to your view - but he isn't.

What a lot of your fans want to gloss over is why the EFL and its constituent clubs currently view your club with so much suspicion. And I'm afraid that on this point, all roads lead back to Mr. Morris, who has turned your club into a by-word in questionable practices that seem unashamedly about giving your club an unfair advantage. It's one of life ironies that he was so bad at it.

None of this is the fault of your fans. I stood in the away end at PP not so long ago and heard you lead chants of "We want Oyston out", and think a lot of you for it. But setting that aside, the fans of other clubs are heartily sick of this saga (two years old, isn't it?), in the Championship we are even more sick of the uncertainty.  My personal view is that as fans you could do more to call the club out on the way it has behaved. I understand why a siege mentality has developed - but your club is very largely in the wrong, and however badly the matter is being handled by others doesn't change that.

The administrators - unfortunately - seem to be playing to the gallery at the moment . I don't understand why they would commit so much money that you can't afford on a case that seems shaky at best, unless it was because they wanted to generate some good PR.  And they do seem to love a public statement that doesn't say very much of substance, don't they? 

I wish you a speedy outcome, even if it is a points deduction that sends you down. The January window is not far away, and there is a real danger that the club won't be a progressive player in it, as things stand. And you need to start planning for a fresh start that gives you hope for the future. Without hope, there isn't much point in following any football club.

I think trying to argue that you were never in danger of administration is a bit disingenuous. You didn't have to go into administration at all, did you? It was a tactic that suited the financial interests of MM to put you there.

I don't deny that COVID has hit some clubs hard, including Derby, but if you want to look at clubs who have really suffered go and have a look at what has happened to Dover Athletic.  In their case, they were made to choose between taking on a debt that they felt they couldn't sustain, or take a heavy fine and points deduction when they chose not to fulfil fixtures they couldn't afford to play. That's suffering on an altogether different scale. 

2 hours ago, Woodley Ram said:

I'm not sure if I agree with you here.

Wigan's administration was at the start of Covid (July 2020), so the effects would have been no where near as damaging. On 4 June 2020, the owners sold the majority of Wigan Athletic shareholdings to Hong Kong-based Next Leader Fund, who didn't invest.  Their main issue was the new owners and not Covid. Wigan would have gone into administration even if Covid never happened.

You could argue that Derby were able to service their debts and operating overheads and had been doing so until Covid. This took £20m out of the coffers and Derby (unlike Wigan) had a whole season and a bit in closed stadiums before administration (September 2021).

I do agree that we would have been less likely to go under without the debt, that said our debt is lower than a lot of others clubs such as Reading. Our overheads are also small, wages are probably £15m per season unlike 2-3 years ago. Also our FFP/P&S is not as high as people think it is, Reading (sorry to mention them again) overspent by £10m's more than Derby.    

Gibson's argument is personal, if not why has he not sued half the clubs who were promoted and why didn't we sue QPR when they went up. Nothing will happen with Gibson and his legal challenges.

I don't see what Derby are doing as any different to what anyone else would do, certainly other clubs such as SWFC, BCFC have appealed and had points reduced and Reading are in the process of trying to negotiate a lower deduction. 

People need to have a look at the debt levels of all clubs as well as operating expenses as they seem to think Derby have the biggest debt, biggest FFP overspend and biggest wage bill. Non of that is accurate by a long way.   

Good post Woodley.

I should have been clearer about my reference to Wigan ; I wasn't trying to claim they were analogous (they're not, in many ways), but I was saying that the COVID impact argument was one that they had tried and it had found no favour.

I quite agree that you can point to more sustained damage over a longer period that Wigan could - but so can everyone else, and that is part of my point. Your woes have been compounded by the recklessness of the previous owner and I see no prospect of the EFL wearing any argument that suggests that you shouldn't be held  to account for that (I know it is crap for the fans, but that is an entirely separate discussion). Not least because they will alienate all the other 71 if they try it - I don't think people want Derby to be placed in purgatory, but they DO expect you to face some consequences for doing a series of things that sought to give you an advantage that many felt was unfair.

Is this ideal? Of course not. Are you the only club with dirty hands? Absolutely not. But there is a perception out there that Mr. Morris' behaviour is particularly egregious and I think the EFL are well aware of that and will take account of it. I've no idea of what Gibson thinks he is doing, and he shouldn't be allowed to interfere. But there are lots of people who share his views about how Derby should be treated. 

The whole thing is a poo show, the fans bear the brunt of it and it demonstrates how broken our regulatory system really is. Tracey Crouch and her cavalry can't arrive soon enough for me. But I think your administrators are guilty of a major error of judgement here which will consume a lot of resources they can't afford, raise hopes that are likely to be dashed and are a huge distraction from the job they should be doing.

Gibson's involvement is the weirdest bit of the whole saga. Not so much that he chose to get involved, more that the EFL allowed him to be quite as central to it all as he appears to be. 

The sooner we get an independent regulator that isn't beholden to vested interests, the better.

We can argue all day about Wigan. But it doesn't change the fact that Derby's case is very, very weak. I can't see the EFL alienating 23 - or even 71 - other Member Clubs to entertain it very seriously. But we'll see.

I do hope that Nixon is wrong about this, for a number of reasons :

1) I don't think you have a hope in hell of winning. Wigan tried this argument and got  short shrift. And there was a much stronger causal link between their problems and COVID than you can argue

2) if you are citing COVID as the primary argument, it's just not true, is it? The decisions that led to your current situation may have been compounded by COVID, but they weren't caused by it

3) this just plays into the "Gibson" argument (for want of a better phrase), that seeks to depict you as a club trying to wriggle off a hook instead of accepting you have been caught fair and square. Whether it is fair or not is a separate issue - it just LOOKS really bad. I can understand that goodwill is not your main worry though

As a Blackpool fan who has a vested interest in all this, I sympathise with those of you who just wants this resolved, along with Reading and anyone else who is in the dock for these sorts of offence. Lots of people outside your fan base feel the same way.

The EFL are supposed to be fighting for their lives at the moment, and trying to make themselves seem relevant in the context of the fan led review.  This dithering, with all the opacity that goes with it, is not fair on any of us. Hopefully, it will be fatal for them, because they long ago forfeited the right to run the competitions they are responsible for.