atherstoneram

Just now, Elwood P Dowd said:

I’m not questioning the idea but I do have doubts about Derby City Council’s business acumen and it’s ability to run the ground and generate a profit for the Derby rate payer.

Just look at the Assembly Rooms !!!

The council said they couldn't afford to rebuild that.

2 minutes ago, EraniosSocks said:

It would make paying the council tax a bit easier knowing it’s going towards pride park. Oh and to also tell Gumps in the area that they are helping save our club ??

Oh yes,the council tax payers would welcome that, seeing their council tax rise going to Pride Park at the same time as seeing subsidies for bus companies being cut so fares rise,library hours shortening, care homes closing, you know all the essential services but never mind we must keep the ground open,a ground the vast majority of tax payers never visit or have any inclination to visit.

1 minute ago, Jimbo Ram said:

It’s the knock on effect for all of the other small businesses too, pubs, restaurants, cafes etc….bit like when the mines closed down in some areas ? If they have to take a 22 million one off hit to maintain an ongoing 100 million annual income in to the city a no brainier really.

How do you arrive at the figure of 100 Million annual income that the club generates for the city? Or is it a figure that just looks good.

1 minute ago, GenBr said:

I would imagine they will be borrowing money to do this so no cutting of services necessary.

Its not like local councils havent done stuff like this before. We built a velodrome that nobody needs and the council is also investing part of the money required to rejuvenate elvaston council. 

You have to look at it from a wider angle. If Derby disappears you lose one of the biggest companies in derbyshire overnight, dozens of people will lose their jobs, all of the community trust stuff disappears, there will be a big empty stadium just rotting away in pride park and i would imagine it will hit a lot of peoples mental health very hard. Maybe the council is looking at it on balance and have decided that taking the hit now (which they will eventually make back from leasing it back anyway) will be better than the whole thing collapsing in its entirety.

It all depends on how you define biggest companies?

I very much doubt that the club is considered one of the biggest companies in Derbyshire, a big fan base yes but company no. 

3 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

So would the council get the revenue from pop concerts, boxing fights etc? Not sure how that would fit in with Ashley’s plans of it becoming the Sports Direct stadium. Interesting though…

Not really the  need for another venue to hold concerts etc, Derby Arena already do that so the council can't use that idea to buy the club.

  https://www.theatresonline.com/venues/derby-venues/derby-arena

12 minutes ago, RipleyRich said:

I can see some objection and outcry if that`s true. Council cutting services due to underfunding etc etc

It would get really political if the council got involved in buying the club especially (if i remember correctly) as the leader of Derby City Council is a season ticket holder. As you say with public services underfunded it would be a hot potato.

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

Yes but these are being paid as we go (apart from any bonuses). When player contracts finish in the summer our wage bill will be small apart from Rooney and co.  Wigan were allowed to go into a new season in admin. I don't see how withholding money in case we fail is really doing anything useful.. in fact it only makes it more likely that we will fail. 

The administrators have struggled this season to provide funds to ensure we complete the season, why should funding be any different next season if we are in the same situation?

8 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

If we sell season tickets for next season there will be money. GoC says we are due £7m from EFL before the summer. So why wouldn't we get past the summer?

If we are still in administration the EFL will not release that money,they will keep it to pay football creditors etc if we are liquidated.

4 minutes ago, SouthStandDan said:

The administrators need to apply a degree common sense (if possible). They might not sell for the price they're looking for, however I'd happily take a -15 point deduction into next season if it meant the club survives, recruitment/contract renewals can start and club jobs secured. This isn't the usual business and I'm sick of reading the admin's cold hearted statements, with zero compassion to the supporters. 

There's bidders for the club, do the right thing and negotiate a deal. Stop holding the club to ransom.

They can't sell just for any price offered.

1 minute ago, Tyler Durden said:

What annoys me is that with all the ITK bullpoo being progressed and pure opinion being touted as fact I asked a question earlier which was are there any legal timeframes to a club being in administration when there's no real prospect of a buyer being found and still waiting for a reply.....would assume people are happy to progress speculation rather than replying with facts. 

Don't think there is a timeframe as such but if we are still in administration during the closed season when the EFL ask the administrators for proof that we can complete next season, which is looking unlikely, then the EFL can expel us from the league.

2 minutes ago, StrawHillRam said:

After it is all over,  Í really do hope there is an enquiry in to the way Quantuma have conducted this. As a supporter and as a tax payer I believe it needs to be made transparent at the end- sale or liquidation particularly

Why does there need to be an inquiry as to how the administrators have gone about things?

1 hour ago, ilkleyram said:

But that's not true.  If a bidder buys the club for (say) £30m then they get the club trading as a business - season ticket and other income, TV income, sponsorship income, goodwill and all the other things that go with a football club.  They buy one of the founders of the league (at the moment) well managed by one of England's all time great players, they get training facilities and an academy with Cat1 status and a fantastic reputation in this area, they get one of the biggest fanbases in the lowest 3 divisions.  They buy potential - a club that's always looking to go upwards even if the trajectory might be the opposite way and they buy opportunity. 

Never (I suspect in the history of English football) will an owner have had such an opportunity to balance the books, to create a business model that works - the player wages/contracts will be the lowest they've ever been, not only in pounds, shillings and pence but also as a % of income.  And they buy a staff and fan group pretty demoralised by the events of the last 6 months off the pitch. In short they can create a club almost from scratch and turn negativity into positivity almost overnight.

We are, in short, one helluva opportunity for a purchaser with some seed money, with ambition, imagination and a willingness to achieve a lot in a short space of time.  And, relatively, cheap too - not necessarily in terms of how the deal stacks up as a deal but how much you might have to spend on a company giving you similar opportunities.  We can be profitable and we can be fun to own.

And, no I I do not work for Quantuma.

Perhaps you should,you've convinced me.

2 minutes ago, Eatonram said:

And in such a scenario HMRC would therefore lose millions in revenue.

Might be millions to the likes of us but it is a pittance to HMRC.

3 minutes ago, Eatonram said:

not in terms of tax law I doubt.

No but there are not many other businesses that have people on Thousands of Pounds a week apart from those at or near the top.If clubs can afford to pay that they can afford the tax bill,anyway we will see what happens.

3 hours ago, Eatonram said:

Atherstone

2. HMRC forced a rule change to stop Football Clubs using administration to avoid/reduce tax bills. I genuinely believe they will stick it out for either a bigger settlement than 25% or be prepared to forego a max £7.5m to drive home a message to the Football World.

You make the HMRC point a lot. HMRC deal with debt via administrators quite a lot. They in the vast majority of cases are offered a choice between 2 figures, percentage of valuation of liquidated assets OR a percentage of money raised through sale as going concern. They take the higher figure.

What you are suggesting os that HMRC will take a bigger loss to "drive home a message to the Football World." In other words treat the Football business in a different way to all other businesses. You may be right but I find that unlikely.

Football is a different business to all other businesses.

3 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Liquidation would be a disaster for everyone involved and considering the amount of interest we’ve had would be a complete abomination. Reputations destroyed particularly Q who certainly wouldn’t get another football gig. Liquidation would be a sad indictment of all parties involved. Everyone will have lost something. 

The administrators reputation would not be destroyed, if they can't get the parties to come to some sort of agreement there is nothing they can do.They can't force people to do something they are unwilling to do. It is the state of the finances which is the problem not the administrators,they are not miracle workers.

2 hours ago, RipleyRich said:

The way I see that is this:

1. The max MM can lose is £20m. That applies if he either gives the Stadium away to effect a sale of the club, or, in the event of liquidation he settles the loan but retains ownership of the "assett"

2. HMRC forced a rule change to stop Football Clubs using administration to avoid/reduce tax bills. I genuinely believe they will stick it out for either a bigger settlement than 25% or be prepared to forego a max £7.5m to drive home a message to the Football World.

3. I cannot imagine that MSD secured a £20m loan against an asset that would not have sufficient residual value in the worst case scenario. They surely are not that niaive? I am convinced they would have done due diligence and have a back up plan for redevelopment or similar.

4. If the preferential creditors cannot be satisfied that becomes an inevitable fact.

5. EFL will quite rightly lay the blame at mismanagement by the clubs owner and Directors.

6. Within a short space of time there will only be Derby County fans and Forest Fans that will truly miss DCFC in the long term. Unfortunately DCFC do not have the financial necessity to the EFL that Rangers did to the SFA.

It was stated in parliament that HMRC would not be the reason for the clubs demise so people automatically think they will accept 25%.

All HMRC have to do is offer a payment plan of 25% upfront with the remainder paid off in monthly instalments over 3 years. By the looks of things there is no way any interested party would agree to that so HMRC can then turn round and say they offered to help the club out by taking the outstanding monies owed in instalments but the new owners refused the plan.

1 minute ago, Half Fan Half Biscuit said:

Totally confused by all this.

In a recent update didn't one of the MPs say the stadium wasn't the issue?

Don't think Quantuma would make good estate agents. Many house put on the market are advertised at "offers over £x".

Couldn't they have told bidders the base price was £50m including stadium - don't bother if you're not going to come in with a figure less than that? Would have saved a lot of time and effort (and admin fees).

And wasn't the original Binnie bid near that anyway in that they were prepared to lease the stadium and sort it out later?

And didn't they have someone lined up on 24 December some 3 months ago so why are the farting around still trying to get acceptable bids? 

The MP would have no idea and only quoting from what they have received from a source unknown. You should know by now that MP's like to come along and show their support as if they care, then when they know they have no influence on matters lose interest.

1 minute ago, TuffLuff said:

Just to add to last nights point I was trying to make…

Its not just money that is important, so the idea of how much is in a bid is partly obsolete aslong as there is some to pay creditors and for whatever else.

The big one is strategy, how the club will look in 3 years and what they will do to get to that point. This is why I think we get some bidders spouting like hey have, they want the football club but aren’t really appreciating what that entails.

We don’t want another idiot throwing cash around, that could be worse than the situation were in now. it needs a clear strategy that we can keep to.

If we survive and take a hit with a 15 point deduction there will be no chance of new owners throwing the cash around, the EFL will put a ceiling on the salaries we can offer. They will also want an undertaking that the club will be sustainable for the next couple of years at least as they won't want the club to finish up in this position again,neither would the administrators for that matter.

3 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Absolutely - and Ashley/Appleby are business men with zero sentiment for the Rams. They will walk away if the figures don't add up, and they won't shed a tear. The fact Mel does have some sentiment is  their gambit I believe

 

If MM had any sentimental feelings towards the club at present i think he would have altered his position. Possibly the love he had for the club has gone.

42 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

On the Morris point, Hosking said a few weeks back he didn't have a clue how much money Morris has. That surprised me. In answer to your question, if I was trying to persuade Morris to take a further hit I would use two reasons for him to do that 1) He can afford to lose a few million  and 2) He is a fan and his fellow Rams fans are suffering big time. There is no legal basis that I know of for getting Morris to cough up more but even the moral argument has to be had with him.    

Regarding your couple of points he may have been advised not to put any more money in. He may be a Rams fan but ultimately money comes First in business not sentiment.

41 minutes ago, Big Trav said:

We’ll if you thought quantama were useless before this has thrown a bit F you to all derby fans. I remember being confident. Was told Mike Ashley was PB and the deal suited all creditors. What that must of meant is Ashley offered enough to avoid 15 point deduction but wanted the stadium for free. We’re in a stand-off here and the only person losing this is derby fans. Mel wants his 20 million so he can pay his personal MSD loan off in full. Ashley wants it at the cheapest price possible. The admins clearly want more money and aren’t really working in the best interests of the club or creditors. It’s a messy situation but we all know who is still calling the shots at the club. First name begins with M and second also begins with M. 

There is a certain line that the administrators will have to work to regarding creditors,they can't let it go for a low price and unsecured creditors get nothing. End of season money the club are due to receive from the EFL might be more than what's left over from a bid of £30M which includes the ground. There will also be a point reached when the administrators say they cannot see a viable future for the club and put it out of its misery.

34 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

I think that sums it up, except I hope the current bids/ interest is rather more than the £30m that Binnies were offering. Even if Morris "gifts the stadium " there is still a £20 m loan secured against it so its not that much of a gift really unless we get rid of the MSD loan. Will Morris take a further hit and help pay off the £20 m loan? Morally he should definitely still help us out if he can.   

No i doubt he would take a further hit,if he was going to he would have done it by now. 

25 minutes ago, S8TY said:

I will start by re-iterating that none of us no anything and is all pure speculation so here's my spin on things

I believe that there are 2 bidders one being a consortium including Morris himself the other Appleby

None of them are offering enough and Morris knows this being far too involved in the process because he owns the ground so any negotiations have to go through him as well as he holds valuable cards to any potential bidder.

MA meanwhile is sitting waiting with a bid which he wants to include the stadium but Morris wants his 22m 

Morris knows his own consortium bid is too low to clear the bar so is basically holding fire waiting for MA to increase his bid where he will then sell he can walk away with club sold and his 20-22m back

I think this only gets sorted when Appleby finally pulls out and Morris bottles it at the last min dropping his price on the stadium where MA will swoop in to buy at the price he sees its worth

I do not see MA upping his offer until its the 11th hour and only if its at the price he values it at and must include the stadium if someone in the meantime...eg Appleby manages to get more funds from somewhere he may well buy it if Mel bends slightly with the price but until the 11th hour its stalemate

Make no bones about it i firmly believe Morris wants to recoup his money 

Appleby is not quite strong enough to buy it 

Ashley is playing waiting game as he can....he has the money to outbid everyone but he has priced the value of the club and I don't think he'll budge hence why there has been no contact with Q for 2 months 

Q cannot name PB because no one has offered enough and I 100 per cent think no one will .....so Morris In my humble opinion is holding the keys to everything.

Best case Scenario - Morris at last min drops value to virtually nothing and then has to explain to HMRC about the value of the ground because he once valued it at 80m and would've had tax benefits based on that and the 22m it cost to buy it.....hence putting himself into a situation with HMRC

Worst case scenario is Appleby pulls out Ashley does not increase his bid or Morris does not let the stadium go and Morris either buys the club back himself with his consortium or lets it all go to liquidation

I still firmly think we will not be liquidated though but may end up led by a Morris led consort not through choice but because being liquidated will be worse for him than owning it himself 

Of course this may well be utter nonsense but its just my own theory of what might be happening but either way we wont be liquidated 

If, and i think it's a big if, MM does take back control of the club i can see HMRC demanding all the amount due, they will not be put in a position where the previous owner gets away with not paying the taxes owed. They may look at it as being conned.

28 minutes ago, Ram Bam said:

This is my take on the statement as well. My completely uneducated guess is that Ashley has put in an expression of interest and said they'll potentially pay more than any other bids but hasn't actually put a bid in. The admins can't accept one of the other bids while there's potentially a bigger offer out there. Meanwhile Ashley is hanging round hoping the other bidders get fed up and give up and can pick us up for as cheap as possible. 

If anyone genuinely interested in saving the club?