Alph

Just now, TexasRam said:

He said if he had wanted to take it quicker it he could of and it would of been much worse. But he hasn’t implying he must be not so bad after all. Crass IMO. To be honest I’m not interested in another perspective with someone trying to be edgy or clever when innocent poeople are being murdered. 

Do you apply that when the west justifies its own wars? 

12 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

It's probably splitting hairs, but I cant think of any western countries have gone to war recently in order to expand their territory (ie annex a neighbour)?

Now if you'd said "regime overthrow in order to install a new order that suits our interests" then no argument

We've done plenty of that

Right now though it looks more likely that Putin wants to subsume Ukraine back into Russia, rather than install a Russian-friendly regime like he has in Belarus?

To hear Putin speak he wants you to believe that he's there on the request of Donetsk and Luhansk Republics, to aid Crimea and to remove all military threats to Russia and their allies neighbours as well as remove a government that supports right wing extremists such as Azov Batallion etc.

The idea that he's there to conquer Ukraine seems to be our perspective. 

Of course Rome forged an empire by "defending" itself and its allies.... so I'm not saying anyone should have to believe him. 

But I think it's fair to draw parallels with our liberations and their invasions. 

I think if we were seeing these images but they were coming from the middle east that we'd be less caring too. But that's just my opinion. I just imagine how we feel now is how many have felt in history when facing thousands of drone strikes from a country prepared to use atomic bombs.

2 minutes ago, Mick Brolly said:

Someone assassinates him hopefully 

Yes, but I imagine he's prepared for that. 

How long do we wait? Ukraine doesn't appear to have long

13 minutes ago, TexasRam said:

Oh good that must make all those dead, injured and or homeless innocent people feel much much better, what a nice chap Putin really is. 

Not what he said or meant and you know that. You've created an argument from his point that he never made. 

Civilian casualties are part of a war, no? That includes Russian and American wars. There were over 2,000 drone strikes in Trump's first 2 years in the Whitehouse and 1000+ under Obama. 

Let's not pretend killing innocent people is just a Putin thing. 

13 000 died to Coalition forces in the Iraq war. 

Thousands died to US and Allies forces in the liberation of Afghanistan

I don't think @BaaLocksever suggested Putin was a nice chap or supported his invasion. He simply offered another perspective and said he believes Russians are showing restraint in this war. 

As did US/UK in their wars. (Not sarcasm). That doesn't mean they should be thanked for it. But it's still true

20 minutes ago, alexxxxx said:

I think the government understand Putin's view I just don't think negotiating with him recognising those views as legitimate in negotiation is ever going to be seen as the right thing to do by the west. 

The west didn't intervene in 2014 and allowed crimea to be annexed in to Russia proper and allowed Russian troops to take over areas of donbass. What happened then? Minsk agreements which were never properly followed by all parties.

Russia doesn't respect Ukraines territorial integrity and therefore no agreement will ever be made 

This is the thing though. People going on that he's evil etc... what do they propose? Nato intervention? 

The odd poster pops on to berate anyone "justifying" the war. 

OK, he's an evil Hitler. Now what? What do they think you can do from there?

So let's go down the route of trying to understand the man

"You're justifying him killing civilians!!!".... yeah, we all love Ukranian kids being killed. I know it's top of my search history. 

There has to be some understanding of the situation or Nato intervention to stop a tyrant. Where do that lead

Putin's invasion of Ukraine isn't a random spot on the map. He knows that he can put forward claims on East Ukraine and Crimea and use that to justify his invasion while we can do nothing. Any criticism he can bat back as hypocrites and mention several similar situations. He's selling it as a defensive war. 

Eddie has suggested 3 times now that people are defending him. They're not. They're understanding his angle

And if The West refuses to understand his view of the world then we will continue down the path of war with Putin and possibly future Russian leaders. 

Rightly or wrongly you can call him evil. But God isn't going to strike him down. So what alternative is there to listening to him? WW3? A Nuclear war?

He won't stop in Ukraine until he has achieved his goals or lost power. 

5 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

You do realise there is a difference between a humanitarian intervention and territorial expansionism? It's a totally false equivalence you're painting here. 

Oh I realise. That's what America do in the Middle East is it? Humanitarian intervention. 

Got it

4 hours ago, Eddie said:

And there are still people who claim to understand this utterly evil cretin's reasoning.

For war? Is there?

It's good to see a fair scattering of people trying to apply some sense from the Russian perspective. 

I think if you paint Putin as this satanic figure who's relentless drive to rebuild the Soviet Union is the reason he's killing his Slavic brothers... then what do you propose. There's no dealing with him except fight fire with fire

Trying to understand him and then there's a point of negotiation. And I think that's what's made this thread such a good civilised debate. In that those who are dead set against Putin have been willing to listen to those who (aren't with Putin) are sympathetic towards his vision for Russia and Russian people. Even if they don't agree its good that people have listened to @BaaLocks and at least thought past the "Hitler is back" angle. 

I don't know how much trouble this thread has caused the mods. I hope not too much

Because between the hysterical West media and the State line Russian media there's surely a logical right answer. And I think there are conversations being had that a realistic, logical and recognise failures on both sides to allow such a war to happen. This little corner of the Internet certainly makes more sense than Liz Truss. 

Anybody watching Question Time?

Couple of people prepared to listen and understand Putin's security concerns, if not because they agree with them, but because you absolutely have to. 

Also something I don't understand. Praise of the protests in Russia but apparently there's discussions that such protests won't be legal here in the future?? Question was shrugged off?

Then some guy saying since 2010 we've weakened our military and allowed Putin to flex over Ukraine and Crimea. We should have "dealt with the threat". We have the smallest military we've had in 300 years

Very interesting guy named Konstantin Kisin. He's ashamed of his country, has family and friends in Ukraine and Russia. Spoke about how we've ignored the threat for too long. Might be wrong but I thought he said we were ignorant of Russian concerns. 

Shame now that it's falling into local politics. About our slow sanctions on "friendly" Russian oligarchs. 

Konstantin shooting down the idea that party politics are relevant or important right now. He says Russia is not receiving our news/independent news anywhere near fast or clear enough to make a difference. And that we should be careful how far we back Putin into a corner. 

America has inflicted this in the middle east for many many years. Destroyed cities in Europe seem to matter a lot more than on other continents

Peace to Ukraine. Freedom to Ukraine. 

And I hope the reaction is the same when USA invade yet another country. 

1 hour ago, ketteringram said:

He also said, repeatedly, nine or ten days ago, he had no intention of invading Ukraine.

Yeah, as I said though I don't think there can be an ulterior motive since his conditions are so impossible for Ukraine

Not the Republic recognition etc but to demilitarise and remove government. What more could he really be hiding. 

Ukraine can't possibly agree to that. Zelensky would have to live in exile? 

Which would probably be Russian justice for Yanukovych. 

It's frustrating now to see both sides making threats. People are dying and will continue dying until talks become more productive. 

Truss should shut up forever. Macron seems to be doing more for peace than most of the European leaders. He does at least seem to have respect in Moscow now. 

Czech Republic are allowing civilians to go fight? I've just read that somewhere. Again, utterly irresponsible if true and it's stuff like that and comments from Truss that is more likely to escalate things. 

It feels like something will have to give soon. Preferably Russia but more than likely Kyiv

56 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Like he literally said he wasn't going to invade Ukraine (I believe)?

True. 

But with his demands there's nothing more he can demand really. Demand 1 is unreasonable.

Demilitarise and de-Nazify.

Basically let him choose your government. It's complete surrender. 

One thing that's pretty annoying is the whole "what does Putin want, why is he doing this"

I think he must have said it a dozen or more times publicly in the last 8 days. 

Why do we have to pretend that he wants to conquer Europe or that we can't figure out what his demands are. 

I'm not saying give him everything he wants. But why is it such a mystery. He's literally said it

1 hour ago, rammieib said:

Know anyone who fancies a cash job for supplying us three fence panels, at least one central joining post and to put them up? What you up to this weekend @Alpha LOL

Me? I'm avoiding people who want fencing doing this weekend!

I think Ilkeston fencing are sound

Just don't get the "I'll do that for £50 mate" handy man who will 1) not show up 2) use compost instead of postcrete. 

I'm waiting for my mate to come do 2 panels on an old bit with me and I think he's hiding from me. Offered him a McDonalds and everything. Will even make it a meal deal

1 hour ago, David said:

You say plasterer, I say joiner, same thing really, you all have your arse cracks out

Ha! Very true! 

I'm a plasterer but I think sites like bark and Next Door are what you mean

But I think those are bidding for the job sites? 

I'd value recommendations over price mate

52 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Dcfcfans own Alpha Chomsky.  ?

You are right though.  It's pretty much across the whole world. A country's own media are generally really bad at holding their own country's actions to the same standard as the actions of foreign countries.  Even countries with a supposedly free press seem unable to do this adequately or fairly.  And the US is a particularly bad example.  Chomsky himself, despite being one of the most famous writers and intellectuals on the planet has been effectively banned from mainstream American media sources (TV sources that is) since the 1960s...all because he does what you say, intensely scrutinizes the actions of his own country. 

I think tbh, its why I'm seeing the good in Putin (yes, I'm aware that's possible with Hitler too!)

But I just despise America at that level. Not as a people of course because we're of a kind.

But the wars they wage both openly and from Washington, the horrific actions they've gone to in trying to win these wars. All in the name of creating a world THEY think is right

It's like your average Joe drinks in this idea that the world is a prisoner until America and Allies can free it. 

They pick and choose who the terrorists are and who the freedom fighters are

And the whole idea that our news tells the honest picture but others are misleading. Bull - fecking - poo. 

It tells selective truths just like they are in Russia. The whole tank running over a car video.... they didn't show the entire full video did they? There's another 5 minutes of that. 

It seems to me that wars waged in the middle east are somehow much more acceptable. Its what they do there. Animals! 

Didn't like 13,000 civilians die to Coalition forces during the Iraq invasion? It was like any number above 200,000 in total. In pursuit of what? Where was the world then? Watching it on telly shaking their heads but not tying them up in sanctions. 

We're very good at presenting our own wars it seems. Some are glorified in Hollywood. The very least we do is imply that things are almost a terrible uncontrollable byproduct of "liberation"

Putin = Hitler

Blair and Bush = naughty boys. 

Russia declaring war on its neighbour claiming to be defending it's territory and states it recognises = Attack on freedom and democracy 

USA and allies invading nations half a world away = liberating the people, bringing freedom and democracy to the region. 

Ah, I don't know. Putin can go choke on his cornflakes for all I care. Blood is on his hands. 

But the West and it's free world BS. Almost laiming anything else you hear to be the propaganda of evil tyrants. 

The reports on the Israel/Palestine conflict are so bad they're almost funny. But that's a thread killing debate right there. 

Hopefully not offended anyone in this post. I'm not about to join a terrorist organisation! Just feels like the propaganda machine in Russia was so popular they ordered one in Washington and London. All the same poo

I just wish America and allies came under such intense scrutiny and one sided media reports. 

That's nothing to do with Putin or Ukraine or Russia. It's good to see the world unite against unjustified wars. Hopefully this can apply to other aggressive nations.

"Freedom and Democracy!" my backside. 

Freedom to choose America. Or be killed directly by them or by whoever they arm to fight you. 

Please ignore last couple of posts from me if you weren't already!

I think I've done enough backing Russian opposition to American/Western threats/expansion.

Whatever Putin has done good in the world will be overshadowed by the bad. That's his own fault and he doesn't deserve the constant explaining on his behalf. 

I'm glad guys on here gave another perspective but ultimately that doesn't need constantly driving forward while there's a war on. Whatever threats there are to Russia are not as big as they are now thanks to him. Just going to pray now that some sense prevails.

11 minutes ago, ramit said:

Is this the dreaded label of today, Putin apologist?  Anyone can be accused of it, it's such fun throwing it out there and then letting them deny it.

 

 

It's a horrible label. 

Because he's not a simple villain from a Bond movie. He's also the other side of the coin to America who aren't strangers to an invasion or two, the odd proxy war, the occasional atomic bomb and just countless civilian deaths. 

When he opposes them is it always a bad thing? When he tests their influence is it always him playing the tyrant? 

When he recognised the Donetsk and Luhansk Republics and annexed Crimea, it was against others... but was he wrong? 100% wrong? 

Apologising for his war in Ukraine? Never. 

For the political opponents he's silenced? Never.

There is no apologising for him. It's just unlike Bond villains there's more to him than wanting to destroy the world (or there was... )

46 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Putin is evil. There are obviously different levels of evil. But he is killing innocent people for personal gain/beliefs. Where is the democracy? Don’t the innocent people of Ukraine get a choice in this?

Let them vote.

Anyone who stays in power for numerous years and has his opposition either killed or thrown in jail is a ruthless, evil dictator. Crazy to suggest otherwise. 

He's not killing for personal gain/beliefs. 

He's doing it for the Soviet Union (I know)

He's doing it for Russian security against NATO expansion and Ukraine is key strategically (again, I know)

He's doing it to free Donetsk and Luhansk

He's doing it to aid Crimea

I don't agree that any of what he's done is the best solution at all.  Because I'm a normal rational person and not an ex KGB officer idealist who witnessed the fall of the Soviet Union and the effects of it on Russia with many years holding a grudge against America. 

But he is. And everything bad he's done is in pursuit of a creating a better life and brighter future for Russian people (and those he considers Russian!!) 

It's a scary mentality. He's a guy for whom the Cold War never ended and he's not alone. Evil? I don't think so but I guess it's irrelevant anyway. He is what he is. Done what he's done (good and bad)

Just to ask you (this isn't a loaded question with a point, I'm genuinely interested in your answer)

What do you make of the right to freedom of the Republics in Donetsk and Luhansk? 

What do you think about the annexation of Crimea?

Were the actions of America and it's allies evil in the Middle East? 

(Again, only interested in the answer. I'm not ready with a load of prepared answers. I would love to see an agreement made that leaves Ukraine neutral and free so peace can last.) 

31 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I think you've failed to understand Russian people and their history plus the situation/events in East Ukraine if you think he's saying that. 

It's that failure to recognise that history and the tie between the two nations (and other Soviet states) by America and its allies that has antagonised Russia. I think it's widely believed they failed to recognise it on purpose and aggressively pursued securing these areas. 

It's a bit like messing with an aggressive dog. If the dog bites and its in the wrong... you're still bitten. 

I'm not suggesting you give into this particular dog either. 

Just to argue my own point while I wait for Pizza

Shouldn't these countries be free to choose their own future. 

Yes, absolutely 

But then we get into the dispute with the referendums held in Luhansk and Donestk which is what really matters. 

Especially when dealing with an ex KGB officer of the Soviet Union nearby. America isn't shy of recognising these rebellions when it suits them. It's not shy when it comes to proxy wars. 

29 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

In  an actual sentence you haven't. But from reading some of your posts, that the conclusion I've come to.

And thankyou for all the fun.

I think you've failed to understand Russian people and their history plus the situation/events in East Ukraine if you think he's saying that. 

It's that failure to recognise that history and the tie between the two nations (and other Soviet states) by America and its allies that has antagonised Russia. I think it's widely believed they failed to recognise it on purpose and aggressively pursued securing these areas. 

It's a bit like messing with an aggressive dog. If the dog bites and its in the wrong... you're still bitten. 

I'm not suggesting you give into this particular dog either. 

23 minutes ago, sage said:

it's all about her image. To be fair she is maintaining her image as a moron

Irresponsible. 

I expect some of those going to be stupid enough to not know what they could be facing. 

She should know. 

She's a dream for Russian propaganda.

Well done Liz Truss. 

You've got people going out there to earn tiktok follows now. Oh, I mean fight. 

I'm sure they'll be able to tell the difference between one Slav and the next. I'm sure they'll know how to work under extreme stress, possibly operate and maintain weapons. No problem with the language being able to read or communicate. And then there's the matter of insurance for death, injuries etc. 

Wonder if they'll feel good about the fine work of Ukraine's Azov Batalion. Or how they're prepared to be taken prisoner by Russian forces. 

Excellent work Liz. Up there with 

"We'll cut them off at the knees" and suggestions that this is the start of a bigger war with Europe/NATO. 

Is it not enough that Russia is reacting to security threats and conflict in Crimea and Donbas by mounting a full scale assault on Ukraine. Is that not enough truth? 

Does she have to play the whole new Hitler angle. 

Go free citizens of the world. Go to Ukraine and fight for NATO so that NATO doesn't break their treaties officially