PistoldPete

Ken Bates tried to pay 1% in Leeds admin, and was forced to raise it to 8%. With him being the winning bidder after putting the club into admin. Don't take any lip from Leeds fans saying we are trying to mug the taxpayer.

Most of it preferred I think. About £2m not. But I don’t actually think it makes that difference. Hmrc can only get what’s left .

Msd have first dibs , then arsenal etc footballing creditors , then Hmrc and then the rest. Oh and then Mel. And finally Gibson and the Wycombe guy. At which point well those last three can go whistling in the wind.

Because many media outlets have said Derby are losing £1m a month. They are not. They may need £1m a month in cash , and to demonstrate to EFL that they do not run out of cash.
last year our FFP as restated by EFL showed an £18 m loss .That was when our stadium was empty  for a full year. It was also allowing final depreciation on Lampard’s poo signings…. Malone, jozefzon Marriott wag horn . Since then we have cut back on spending on wages too. 
 
so I’m saying we are not making losses at anything like that level now but cash flow is not great due to season ticket money being paid in advance and carried over. 
 
that’s why I think we need a temporary loan to help with cash flow.
 
of course we also need a shed load of money to pay off our debts but that is a different matter. 

True, FFP loss is not total loss but you get my drift. I was just answering a poster who was saying there was something dodgy abut the administrators needing to borrow money. There isn't, especially if it is only to meet cash flow needs. 
And yes we probably are still making a loss atm. But a wealthy owner may well consider a manageable loss is worth it , to have a bit of fun and maybe  have a punt at getting into the big time.  Just not a loss of £30m to £40 m each year thank you. 

Because many media outlets have said Derby are losing £1m a month. They are not. They may need £1m a month in cash , and to demonstrate to EFL that they do not run out of cash.
last year our FFP as restated by EFL showed an £18 m loss .That was when our stadium was empty  for a full year. It was also allowing final depreciation on Lampard’s poo signings…. Malone, jozefzon Marriott wag horn . Since then we have cut back on spending on wages too. 
 
so I’m saying we are not making losses at anything like that level now but cash flow is not great due to season ticket money being paid in advance and carried over. 
 
that’s why I think we need a temporary loan to help with cash flow.
 
of course we also need a shed load of money to pay off our debts but that is a different matter. 

I can get on board with that - although not sure about your ‘restated’ FFP loss. FFP losses exclude some costs, such as running costs of the Academy. Pure speculation on my part but I wouldn’t be surprised if we were still losing around £0.5m per month (excluding Administrator costs).

We would need about £35 million for incoming transfer fees for HMRC to get more than 25% of their debt. We wil not get anything like that, maybe as little as £10 million in total if we were to sell all our players in a hurry.    

We would need about £35 million for incoming transfer fees for HMRC to get more than 25% of their debt. We wil not get anything like that, maybe as little as £10 million in total if we were to sell all our players in a hurry.    

Should I be punished for wasting my money on a dodgy motor? Or investing my money in a dodgy investment sold to me by a dodgy broker?
I don't like people wasting their money any more than you seem to but why should anyone be punished for buying a loss making club and not be able to make it profitable?

Clearly they were exaggerating. As are you, especially in cold weather. 

They might. But the potentail buyers probably wouldn't. They don't owe HMRC anything at all.  

Even debenhams carried on trading online after they were liquidated. Look up what Debenhams owners did to them, their employees, their pensioners etc... after Philip Green stripped out dividends and paid to his wife in Monaco.  ANd their owner after him too, dodgy.
By contrast  Derby whose recent problems are mostly not of their making but due to no fans being allowed in the ground  and some still staying away due to COVID,  would be banished by EFL to the lower leagues. ANd people here talking about the morality of someone who never took any dividends .. spent too much on player wages (which means he paid too much to HMRC too by the way). And even if he is immoral why punish the club the fans, the creditors and even HMRc itself. Would be mad,  beyond mad. 
   

Clearly they were exaggerating. As are you, especially in cold weather. 

What the Mail is saying is that no buyer will pay anything if it means acquiring that level of debt. The club cannot stay in admin forever. So the admin team could decide to liquidate the club and then HMRC get nothing.

Even a 25% payment gets HMRC £7million. Plus future tax on revenues and PAYE etc.
if it doesn’t do a deal HMRC gets nothing from the proceeds of the admin .And nothing in future either. 
It should be a no brainer.

I accept everything you say. 
 
for all the moralising going one here I think what has happened here is terrible for the fans, creditors , people with jobs etc. But not very high on the immorality scale .. just careless , reckless and more than a bit unlucky.
 
But really isn’t even unethical according to the report by qunatuma leave alone illegal contrary to what some has suggested. 

I accept everything you say. 
 
for all the moralising going one here I think what has happened here is terrible for the fans, creditors , people with jobs etc. But not very high on the immorality scale .. just careless , reckless and more than a bit unlucky.
 
But really isn’t even unethical according to the report by qunatuma leave alone illegal contrary to what some has suggested. 

The Mail article fails to mention the point that anyone buying the club will most likely be able to buy a stadium that would cost £100m+ to rebuild, and valued at £80m 3 years ago for £20m, apparently. 
That would be a prize worth paying £60m for. 

Nobdody is suggesting a write off of all HMRC debt. HMRc will get at least 25%,  hopefully more.  A payment plan may work in combination with this provided the buyer accepts the debt at all which they are not bound to do.

Even a 25% payment gets HMRC £7million. Plus future tax on revenues and PAYE etc.
if it doesn’t do a deal HMRC gets nothing from the proceeds of the admin .And nothing in future either. 
It should be a no brainer.

Even a 25% payment gets HMRC £7million. Plus future tax on revenues and PAYE etc.
if it doesn’t do a deal HMRC gets nothing from the proceeds of the admin .And nothing in future either. 
It should be a no brainer.

Bolton fan in peace and sincerely hoping you survive. Just a comment regarding HMRC from our experience. HMRC tried to have us wound up by issuing a winding-up order on a number of occasions, first occasion was £600k bill and that was resolved in court by our ex-owner (we think) writing a cheque. The second occasion was just before we went into Admin with a bill of ~£1.2m. We went to court a number of times as the search for a new owner was continuing (prior to Admin - which I think protects you from Winding up orders) eventually we went into Admin, as it was clear we couldn't clear that debt.
When the deal completed, as I understand it, pretty much our first cheque from the new owners, was to HMRC to settle the outstanding.
The situation was same with Bury, over much smaller amounts. HMRC issued a number of winding up orders.
It felt to us like HMRC were just dying to wind up a few football clubs, and in our case, there was no "dealing" with them, other than to find a way to pay and buying time through the Admin route.
 
Good luck with your fight - it's always the fans that suffer.

But do you not think the club was unable to afford to pay the tax? It’s not exactly something the club just chose to do. They had little  revenue coming in, due to COVID players on secure contracts and severe financial consequences also if those are not paid as a priority.

also going into admin avoids the debt getting bigger. It’s done to protect the creditors . It’s not a stunt. 
I mean you might think Morris should have stumped up the difference . Problem being I don’t know whether he has the readies to do that. And even if he did there is nothing any of us can do about that . So what point is there in Hmrc punishing the fans and the remaining creditors and indeed itself by forcing liquidation now? 

No lesson at all. Also if the lesson is don't spend too much on player wages otherwise this is what happens.. well again HMRC is a big loser as they get less in PAYE if players wages are lower.