When things are bad, and when fans act like things are bad!

[Mostyn6]

11 minutes ago, toddy said:

You can say all of our 1st team players are 'good', as a combined team though they are not good.

We have had some awful purchases this year, Balckmann, Camara etc

they were always going to be awful when fans had decided they were awful within 5 minutes of their debuts.

[LazloW]

Although I don't post that much, I post even less after we lose because the level of hysteria reaches such a ridiculous level that its hard to take things seriously.

I think David mentioned it earlier, there is a big difference between "we played ok today and deserved a point. We need to concentrate for 95 minutes and this trend of late goals is a concern" and "OMG that was the worst performance I've seen. We should be beating Huddersfield 5-0 every time because they are Huddersfield and we are Derby and no matter how well Huddersfield have been playing or where they are in the league or how well we played or how well they played or whether it was a decent performance spoiled by one bit of poor concentration at the end or any other bit of context WE ARE DERBY AND SHOULD WIN EVERY GAME. I hate these bunch of high paid prima donnas, why aren't they all performing like Messi? They're Championship players ffs, surely they should never make a mistake etc etc"

The trouble is, a lot of people (especially straight after a game) cannot differentiate between the result and the performance, or bring the bigger picture into their arguments. I mean, people suggesting that after being at the club a week and winning one, drawing one and losing one, meant SMC wasn't any beter than Pearson!! HE'D BEEN HERE A WEEK!

Obviously, football is a results business and a game of opinion. I just don't like it when the result clouds all reason and every defeat is the worst thing that has ever happened. Ever. We can be disappointed about losing and not resort to the inane and the hysterical.  Oh, and resorting to the inane doesn't make you a more passionate or better fan.

[Mostyn6]

@LazloW you should post more. Your posts to likes ratio is impressive too.

[t'oldu]

It's the underlying direction of movement that upsets the more stable / less knee-jerking fans.

[1967Ram]

1 hour ago, toddy said:

You can say all of our 1st team players are 'good', as a combined team though they are not good.

We have had some awful purchases this year, Balckmann, Camara etc

Unfortunately I have to agree with your views on Blackman. A mate of mine who supports Reading was a bit annoyed when we bought him but couldn't believe what we'd paid and predicted him to not be successful.

I'm going to withhold judgement on Camara though 'cause I just haven't seen enough of him.

[jono]

21 hours ago, Tony Le Mesmer said:

As a relative outsider looking in over the past 3 seasons at Derby. I think anyone who sees failure more than just "we've just not got over the line when it really mattered so hey ho, lets move on and go again" is probably always going to be disappointed supporting the club.

The club are failing in the current moment BIG TIME but the last three seasons I would bite your hand off to have that for the next three.

If it means failure then so be it.

It's all about the individual interprets it.

All things considered, failure for me personally as a Derby fan would be drab football and not challenging for play offs. I don't expect to get in the play offs or to get automatic promotion but to be in with a shout of the play offs towards the last knockings of the season AND playing some entertaining stuff along the way.

So it looks like this season will be failure.

I like that summary Tony . Its great to dream and have ambition of what might be. There is, with Mel and the stability he has given us, always that chance of being a division higher ( our crowds, history and culture make that realistic too )

But, top half of the table and the goals going in provides 90% of my football enjoyment. Promotions, cups and golden days are the icing  

[IlsonDerby]

4 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

shouldn't matter one bit. It wasn't YOUR money.

The only thing to consider is whether the player is good or not.

That is such a blasé attitude to have towards it. Do you think Portsmouth fans are sat there thinking oh well wasn't our money, or do you think they'd wished they'd been a little more savvy with their spending during the good times. 

Yes it wasn't my money but it is my clubs money and unless I'm very unlucky I will be around long after the current ownership/leadership as will my football club. We are all stakeholders. 

[ramsbottom]

Many a time I've posted my dislike of a lot of fan's thinking that we should be automatically promoted due to us being DCFC, and said attitude making us come across like those jeb-ends up the road.  We're not entitled to anything other than participation in 46 games of football a season.

As disappointing as the end of the last 3 seasons have been, at least we've been fighting it out at the correct end of the table, I'd much rather be towards the top looking down instead of where we are now.  As others have pointed out, unless we're caning a team 3-0 by half time, the boo boys will be out in force, blaming Keogh for everything from conceding late on to their daughter failing her spelling test.  If you want the free-flowing, Barca-esq, attacking football to return get p155 & moan at every single misplaced pass and encourage.  The England team are a prime example of what happens when too much expectation is placed on a teams shoulders.

[Mostyn6]

2 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

That is such a blasé attitude to have towards it. Do you think Portsmouth fans are sat there thinking oh well wasn't our money, or do you think they'd wished they'd been a little more savvy with their spending during the good times. 

Yes it wasn't my money but it is my clubs money and unless I'm very unlucky I will be around long after the current ownership/leadership as will my football club. We are all stakeholders. 

not at all.

FFP NOW exists to avoid the Portsmouth thing happening again.

Budgets exist, and clubs can no longer buy players on the never-never, banks won't allow it. Even the likes of Forest have to prove they can afford a player, even if they with-hold payment.

If 2 players are identical ability and performance, you're effectively saying you give more benefit of the doubt to whichever was cheaper, effectively being harsher to the one which cost more. That is very stupid in my opinion, and very ignorant.

Players themselves do not decide how much money a team is willing to spend on them.

You should be judging players on how they do their relative jobs, not how much they cost.

[europia]

23 hours ago, Angry Ram said:

 

I concede we do have both ends of the spectrum on a forum.. Some of the happy clappers on here beggar belief and they will never see the train that hits them. We also have some real doom merchants but not too many. Some of us on here will ask a question, challenge a decision made by the club, on or off the field, not tow the party line because Morris is a fan.. That does not mean we hate the club.. I would say that those posters are possible the more passionate amonst us..

 

 

Yes absolutely, most folks are realists, with the happy clappers & prophets of doom on the fringes. It's kind of a reflection of society in general.

[ramsbottom]

2 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

@LazloW you should post more. Your posts to likes ratio is impressive too.

Alright, climb out his arse...

[toddy]

3 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

they were always going to be awful when fans had decided they were awful within 5 minutes of their debuts.

The fans have turned two brilliant players into poor players. FFS

Please move on, Blackmann and Camara were not good players before they joined us and they certainly have not improved since being here.

[toddy]

2 hours ago, 1967Ram said:

Unfortunately I have to agree with your views on Blackman. A mate of mine who supports Reading was a bit annoyed when we bought him but couldn't believe what we'd paid and predicted him to not be successful.

I'm going to withhold judgement on Camara though 'cause I just haven't seen enough of him.

Shhh Mostyn6 will hear you...............

[IlsonDerby]

7 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

not at all.

FFP NOW exists to avoid the Portsmouth thing happening again.

Budgets exist, and clubs can no longer buy players on the never-never, banks won't allow it. Even the likes of Forest have to prove they can afford a player, even if they with-hold payment.

If 2 players are identical ability and performance, you're effectively saying you give more benefit of the doubt to whichever was cheaper, effectively being harsher to the one which cost more. That is very stupid in my opinion, and very ignorant.

Players themselves do not decide how much money a team is willing to spend on them.

You should be judging players on how they do their relative jobs, not how much they cost.

No I think if two players are of the same ability and perform at the same level then yes the cheaper one is deemed more successful. And I'd like to highlight that at no point did I say I'd criticise more harshly/hive benefit of the doubt based on price though I don't think it's unusual or harsh to expect more from a more expensive player as surely that's what you pay the premium for??

As a club would I prefer us to sign Ozil for £40m or Mahrez for £300k? 

Weve shown were clearly capable of getting around FFP with how we structure deals, this doesn't mean that our long term financial future is secure. Football is volatile. Heaven forbid something happens to Mel, we're left with no sugar daddy owner but with a bloated squad of very very well paid players. Where is that £8m per year that owners are allowed to inject going to come from? 

I don't just care about the here and now Mostyn I care about the long term. That isn't stupid or ignorant. It is cautious. 

Do I care that we've spent £8m on a striker who doesn't 'yet' seem to fit Macs system? Yeah. Do I think it'd be better if a similar player cost less? Definitely. Wouldn't make it harder to bring somebody in that fits the system if Vydra or the system cannot be adapted. Much harder to leave an £8m striker on the bench.

[europia]

20 hours ago, David said:

 

If it does go Pete Tong I wouldn't criticise the club for trying it, (happy clapper status comfirmed), every appointment is a risk and there wasn't many unemployed options out there. Steve Bruce possibly although I'm sure Villa were sounding him out before sacking RDM and convincing any club to part with their manager at this stage of the season would always be difficult.

 

Don't suppose it was lost on everyone, Mac saying in a recent interview that the job is bigger than expected (or words to that effect). Wasn't he saying the same thing after a couple of months at Newcastle

[Mostyn6]

13 minutes ago, toddy said:

The fans have turned two brilliant players into poor players. FFS

where did I say that?

They've both played about as much as Weimann. More than Rawson, Elsnik etc, yet nobody has judged them yet.

It's too soon. BUT, it says more about people who judge players as 'poor' before they've had to chance to prove themselves, than it does the player. You probably thought Pearce was a bad signing this time last season.

[toddy]

6 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

where did I say that?

They've both played about as much as Weimann. More than Rawson, Elsnik etc, yet nobody has judged them yet.

It's too soon. BUT, it says more about people who judge players as 'poor' before they've had to chance to prove themselves, than it does the player. You probably thought Pearce was a bad signing this time last season.

Blackmann is awful as a striker how many games has in played in, how many goals has he got.

I have seen nothing in Camara apart from pace....

Two players that should never have been purchased for money............

[Mostyn6]

2 minutes ago, toddy said:

Blackmann is awful as a striker how many games has in played in, how many goals has he got.

I have seen nothing in Camara apart from pace....

Two players that should never have been purchased for money............

51 goals in 233 games, a goal every 4.5 games. Not bad for someone who plays a mixture of positions. 

Johnny Russell has 87 in 324, which is about a goal every 3.75 games. Many of which in Scotland.

Chris Martin has 110 in 365, which is roughly a goal every 3.3 games.

Darren Bent has 203 in 521, which is a goal every 2.5 games.

Weimann has 31 in 176, which is a goal every 5.6 games.

Vydra has 61 in 205, which is a goal every 3.4 games, similar to Martin.

Ince had 60 in 213, which remarkably is very similar to Martin and Vydra, yet having rarely played up front.

 

 

 

[sage]

8 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

It was hit and miss, same as everyone. 

A similar success rate to McClaren and Clement?

[Mostyn6]

4 minutes ago, sage said:

A similar success rate to McClaren and Clement?

'success' is subjective. I couldn't say definitively compared to McClaren, but not much in it. Not sure McClaren has money to waste, and relied on loans and freebies, aside of maybe Christie (for the first team), and I'd say Nigel equally so.

The Clement side of it was very odd, and I think cost him his job more than the slump did. He wasted money in my opinion, assuming he sanctioned every purchase.

I could name successes and failures, in my opinion for both Clough and McClaren, as a outright number, there would be more on Clough, but he had 5 years worth.