curb Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Does a "top six" player really exist? I think not. Most teams in this league are basically the same. League position is not decided on who's got the best players - it's mainly confidence, momentum and luck with injuries. Chrystal Palace are a good example. There aren't many players in that team that make you think "pwhoooar, now he's going to get them out of this league", and they're not too different from the team that's struggle in recent seasons. You can't sign a top 6 player because top 6 players do not exist, in my opinion. Bizarre post 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wacko:' /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuespachRam Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Does a "top six" player really exist? I think not. Most teams in this league are basically the same. League position is not decided on who's got the best players - it's mainly confidence, momentum and luck with injuries. Chrystal Palace are a good example. There aren't many players in that team that make you think "pwhoooar, now he's going to get them out of this league", and they're not too different from the team that's struggle in recent seasons. You can't sign a top 6 player because top 6 players do not exist, in my opinion. League position is COMPLETELY decided on who is the best...of course it is! The best team in the league will win it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 I'm with duracell on this. Everyone can have an opinion on how good a player is, but i don't think it's as straightforward to label someone a "top 6 player". Far easier to label a "top 6 team". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 i think you can have quality players who are what we define as top 6, and I also think you have teams like crystal palace where the players aren't great but they have a strong team ethic and that is why they are where they are. But if you put them in another team they may struggle. I think you can qualify a top player e.g. whittingham and you can qualify players who are poor e.g. claude davies, but to put a tag on all players is a lot more difficult and in reality you need a good mix to do well in this league. Also bris, barker not a top player? I hope your not serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Bizarre post 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wacko' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':wacko:' /> Why don't you engage in debate rather than just label a post like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Erm yes you can IMO.. A player that regularly plays for a team in the top 6 can be classified as a top 6 player.. I think I can clearly say P.Whittingham is a top 6 player.. He's finished there on numerous occasions and would be wanted by a top 6 club should Cardiff be selling him. And to the other point, erm yes the best players do help their club get the best finishes.. You wouldn't find a team of Cardiffs quality finishing 17th and you wouldn't find a team of Derbys quality finishing in the top 6. There has never been a team to finish in the top 6 where you simply look at their players and think 'average' They finish in the top 6 because they have decent players, obviously. Peter Whittingham's a fine player, but if a team had 22 players of that ilk in their side, they'd be breaking all sorts of records in this division. In some of this club's darkest days, we've had Kris Commons, a player of equal ability. He's never been a top 6 player though... The top 6 changes every season, sometimes you only get one team in the top 6 from the previous season - so where dp all of those top 6 players end up? Leicester aren't doing too brightly, they might not finish in the top 6 - does that mean that they've got no players that could get in a top 6 side? I'm sure when you had Dean Moxey, you weren't calling him a top 6 player. Or, likewise, when we had Danny Graham. Players can look absolutely crap in this league one minute, and be excellent the next. It's a confidence game in this league. So many of this year's high flyers have changed little from last season. Boro and Hull were as bad as us at times last season. My point is that most players you can turn in to a top 6 player overnight, and some players can look like a top 6 player one minute and look awful the next. That's why the Championship is impossible to predict. Whilst I agree that Ben Davies is no worldie, you almost seem to be saying we can't get promoted with a player like him. I strongly disagree. We were promoted in 06/07 with only one decent striker and no first choice left-back. We played with Mo Camara in defence. Forest were nearly promoted three times with Dele Adebola and Nathan Tyson (personally, I don't think he's a bad player but not many would describe him as top 6). As crap players go, Davies makes himself pretty useful with his assists. I'm not claiming we'll ever get promoted because of players like him, but every team that goes up has a player like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambitious Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 As already said, how the person with the most assists in the league can be said to be useless and does nothing is beyond me, he is a player that creates without the bells and whistles which is completely fine for me. A player who can put the ball into the box on a plate for someone, or who can make consistent passes to team-mates is far more useful than someone who can beat 10 players, shoot and watching it go wide by a foot or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIMBAUD Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 As already said, how the person with the most assists in the league can be said to be useless and does nothing is beyond me, he is a player that creates without the bells and whistles which is completely fine for me. A player who can put the ball into the box on a plate for someone, or who can make consistent passes to team-mates is far more useful than someone who can beat 10 players, shoot and watching it go wide by a foot or two. Those who think BD is crap = B4 and bris. - strange bedfellows indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Those who think BD is crap = B4 and bris. - strange bedfellows indeed. Didnt say he was crap, I said he's not a top 6 player.. So what top 6 team could he get into then? Squad player yes, first teamer no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotherhamRam Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Would B.Davies get in any of last years top 6 teams? Would B.Davies get in any of this years top 6 teams? Answers no and no. Is B.Davies a top 6 player.. Quite frankly no.. If we want to build a top 6 team, he simply can't feature as a regular.. Squad player yes, regular no.. We're building, and to do that you need to replace average players with better players and make your average first teamers squad players who can come in.. The moment we finish in the top 6 I can garauntee that B.Davies, Ward, Barker, Robinson, S.Davies, Paul Green, N.Tyson, Roberts, Addison, Buxon and R.Anderson will not be regulars in the starting line up.. I'd even put my house (more like cabana) on it.. These players simply aren't good enough and won't be good enough to merit a starting place in a top 6 team.. Squad players perhaps, starting line up no way.. I want us to build a top 6 team, so I want us to bring in players that will dislodge the likes of B.Davies and improve us further.. It is not as simple as having your "top 6 team". Look at Blackpool how many top 6? players did they have no one gave them a chance got up. It is about having a blend within the team and committmant, the never say die attitude etc. That season we went up would you say we had a team full of top 6 players. The answer is clearly NO. The reason saying this is lets be honest this season has seen the promoted teams doing really well because the gap in the bottom 6-8 teams of prem teams is now slowly getting closer because of the financial constraints. To honestly think that you can label a player top 6 is basically crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotherhamRam Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 i think you can have quality players who are what we define as top 6, and I also think you have teams like crystal palace where the players aren't great but they have a strong team ethic and that is why they are where they are. But if you put them in another team they may struggle. I think you can qualify a top player e.g. whittingham and you can qualify players who are poor e.g. claude davies, but to put a tag on all players is a lot more difficult and in reality you need a good mix to do well in this league. Also bris, barker not a top player? I hope your not serious. PLEASE PLEASE don't start him off again we will have countless threads and pages where he will justify with stats, top 6 player quotes where people will feel they have to respond in fear of being labelled with a view supported by Bris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIMBAUD Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Didnt say he was crap, I said he's not a top 6 player.. So what top 6 team could he get into then? Squad player yes, first teamer no. i don't agree with your soundbite analysis of a players worth - you seem to like stats - the stats say you are wrong about BD. so do i. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 PLEASE PLEASE don't start him off again we will have countless threads and pages where he will justify with stats, top 6 player quotes where people will feel they have to respond in fear of being labelled with a view supported by Bris ok i won't make the wum start up again 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DcFc Dyycheee Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Ben Davies assists have lead to around 40% of our goals this yr so can't see how you can moan with this. The question has to be what about the other winger. Now I like Ward and think when he is on his game there is not many better. However when everyone fit would like to see us return to the 5231 formation as think the players we have will suit this formation. ------------------Fielding--------------------- Brayford---Barker----Shackell---Lafferty (if signed)/Roberts -----------Bailey-------Hendricks/Green--- Ben Davies----Bryson------Jamie Ward --------------Tyson/Robinson------------ The bench of Ladzgin (if that is how you spell it), Tyson/Ward, Hendricks/Green, Lafferty/Roberts, O'Brien The reason for two defenders on bench is that the likes of Bailey, Hendricks, Green, Bryson can play anywhere in the midfield 5 so cover each other, defenders are where we seem to pick up most injurues. Ben Davies, Bryson and Ward can interchange throughout the game and not weaken the three and all are quick enough to get up with Tyson and Robinson. Hendricks/Bailey/Green can protect the back four whilst supporting the front 4 and this would leave Davies/Bryson and Ward to support Tyson or Robinson and play on the attack a lot more. This formation works and is utilised by Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool throughout the season depending on players form and injuries. Until we get these players back fit and fully fit Derby will struggle a little I think as we are having to revert to the 442 formation. The problem with this at moment is that Ward and Davies are not notorius tacklers and rather play on the front foot. Bryson is more of an attacking midfielder than a defensive one and is better form was at the beginning of the season in the 3 behind Davies. Hendrick is young and inexperienced but improving all the time. The problem at the minute and especially against Cardiff was that they occupied the same area of the pitch which left a hole to exploit and their experience exploited this. The key for us this season is the defence. O'Brien has done well but missing Barker. Shackell not fully fit and is expected to do more and more each game. Against Cardiff do not think I have seen a CB touch the ball as often as he did as the ball came to him a lot and everything appeared to start with him. Missing Brayford on the right bursting down the wing and has shown we need cover there desperately. Roberts as one season left in him and does not have the legs to support Ward down the wing so if the link to Lafferty is true hope it happens as a left back is needed to build upon in the future. Once the back 4 is back fit and fully fit the strength of the team will return and this will then allow the midfield and strikers to play their game. At present the midfield is having to drop back too deep to help support the defence and this then means the gap between midfield and strikers is too big. So the knock on affect of our weak defence at present is the area I think affecting our performances at present. Hope it is true that Brayford and Barker will be back fit either after this break or shortly after as they are needed back asap before we end up in a run like last year. Personally don't think that will happen as the players this year appear to be more determined to fight where as last year they were more than happy to role over put their hands and legs up into the air and give up. Agreed with that team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 I agree we played some great football with the 4231 formation last season but the key to it working is the 1. I don't know if Robinson can play it but he's scoring goals and deserves a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotherhamRam Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I agree we played some great football with the 4231 formation last season but the key to it working is the 1. I don't know if Robinson can play it but he's scoring goals and deserves a chance. Think with the 4231 formation it does not require the big man up front as it worked better last year when we played football instead of hoof ball as it requires the 3 players to be close to the striker and the temptation is to hit it up to the big man which is where it did not work out last year with Davies and Porter up there. When Kuqi was here he was excellant at running the channels and the ball was played into areas for him to run into and hold up. With this in mind Robinson was forced to play up on his own versus the dogs only a matter of weeks ago and his running allowed us to keep pressure on. Tyson mainly has the experience and speed to run the channels and with playing on the wings can hold it whilst waiting for support. Robinson will do the same. However the key to the formation is the holding 2. The issue at moment in midfield is not that Hendricks is too young or Bryson not in same form as at the beginning or the 442 formation. The issue is that Bryson and Hendrick are playing parrell games. They cover the same areas, they play a similar game when Bryson is forced into a defensive position and think about the game the same way. Bailey is probably not the midfield general he does however play differently to Green and Hendricks and therefore can work in tandom far easier than other combinations. If the midfield 2 are able to protect the defence then the attacking 4 have a more free role. The attacking 4 of B. Davies, Ward, Bryson and Tyson especially allows for interchanging and the beauty of this is you can not man mark a player as they could pop up anywhere. All 4 have their strengths in that B. Davies although some on here don't believe is important can put that pass in that leads to a scoring opportunity and does track back, Ward can score from any angle and works the defence and on his day will make a fullback stop back in defence for fear of leaving it open. Bryson can support the wingers and attacker and can get box to box and has the stamina to run for the whole 90 minutes and be as affective in the 95th minute as he was in the 1st minute and can finish. Tyson has speed and can run the channels and will force centre halves to hold back in fear of being turned by a pass from the other three, he may also cause defenders to put a rash tackle in leading to yellow or red cards being issued. Once this happens then defenders are again more wary which feeds into the strengths of the other 3 behind him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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