bcnram Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 And on the hooligan thing - don't talk such nonsense. Standing doesn't have a bearing on hooliganism. And there has been a tiny fraction of a % of hooliganism in football grounds since all seater stadiums were introduce for what reason? coincidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnram Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Been to plenty of music gigs and festivals where a serious accident is a real possibility, with packing many people in to tight spaces. How could safe-standing be more dangerous than that? One rule for football, another for other events. Different scenarios.... music gigs are generally on a flat surface with the focus being in one place on one event. Football terracing has always been on sloped terracing with a moving focus and encourages crazy tribal behaviour. Personally, I don't care if people do stand so long as it is not in front of me. I like to sit down, watch and appreciate the beautiful game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoetheRam Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 And there has been a tiny fraction of a % of hooliganism in football grounds since all seater stadiums were introduce for what reason? coincidence? Because of massive amounts of police, CCTV, long bans, long jail terms for hooliganism... It's clear from your post to Duracell you've totally missed the point of this. One of the main points of Safe Standing is that it provides an area for fans who want to stand to do so without irritating people like yourself by standing infront of someone who wants to sit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnram Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Because of massive amounts of police, CCTV, long bans, long jail terms for hooliganism... It's clear from your post to Duracell you've totally missed the point of this. One of the main points of Safe Standing is that it provides an area for fans who want to stand to do so without irritating people like yourself by standing infront of someone who wants to sit. I don't accept your points as there were far more police involved when terrace hooliganism was at it's height. CCTV has made recognising & banning those responsible by all-seater stadiums. Regarding Duracell's points, I was really answering his claim that it is one rule for football and another for the rest. I accept that the safe standing area would not be the same as the terracing of the 70's & 80's. Having said that, I do not believe that it will be as completely safe as some are making out. I am also not so certain that clubs would be willing to invest in this experiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I don't accept your points as there were far more police involved when terrace hooliganism was at it's height. CCTV has made recognising & banning those responsible by all-seater stadiums. Regarding Duracell's points, I was really answering his claim that it is one rule for football and another for the rest. I accept that the safe standing area would not be the same as the terracing of the 70's & 80's. Having said that, I do not believe that it will be as completely safe as some are making out. I am also not so certain that clubs would be willing to invest in this experiment. No way there are more Police now for a big match than ever there were in the late 80's when the odds were not so much in their favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnram Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 No way there are more Police now for a big match than ever there were in the late 80's when the odds were not so much in their favour. Isn't that what i said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I don't accept your points as there were far more police involved when terrace hooliganism was at it's height. CCTV has made recognising & banning those responsible by all-seater stadiums. Regarding Duracell's points, I was really answering his claim that it is one rule for football and another for the rest. I accept that the safe standing area would not be the same as the terracing of the 70's & 80's. Having said that, I do not believe that it will be as completely safe as some are making out. I am also not so certain that clubs would be willing to invest in this experiment. It is hardly an experiment it is proven to work in the biggest attended league the German Bundesliga. The old terraces were unsafe because the capacity of them was allowed to be too high and the filtering arrangements to make sure certain parts were not overcrowded were inadequate, also they were fenced. At the Baseball Ground at the time of Hillsbrough the capacity of the Popside was 10,000, which was uncomfortable to say the least by the time it was converted to seats capacity was cut to 4,500 where there was no safety issue at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianm Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Isn't that what i said? I didn't word it very well. There are more police now than ever there were in the 80's and they are far better equipped with every Camera known to man, batons, better knowledge and more powers than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnram Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I didn't word it very well. There are more police now than ever there were in the 80's and they are far better equipped with every Camera known to man, batons, better knowledge and more powers than ever. I remember there being far more police in attendance in the 80's. Totally agree with the rest though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnram Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 It is hardly an experiment it is proven to work in the biggest attended league the German Bundesliga. The old terraces were unsafe because the capacity of them was allowed to be too high and the filtering arrangements to make sure certain parts were not overcrowded were inadequate, also they were fenced. At the Baseball Ground at the time of Hillsbrough the capacity of the Popside was 10,000, which was uncomfortable to say the least by the time it was converted to seats capacity was cut to 4,500 where there was no safety issue at all. Maybe it isn't working that well!! [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/oct/27/police-injured-german-cup-violence]http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/oct/27/police-injured-german-cup-violence I accept this may be a one off but ...... maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 And there has been a tiny fraction of a % of hooliganism in football grounds since all seater stadiums were introduce for what reason? coincidence? no, it coincided with better police techniques into dealing with it, price rises, cctv being introduced etc, while seating may have had a small part in it, i somehow doubt it was the contributing factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therams69 Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 Maybe it isn't working that well!! [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/oct/27/police-injured-german-cup-violence]http://www.guardian....an-cup-violence I accept this may be a one off but ...... maybe not. This has nothing to do with safe standing. If you can prove or link the fact that it did then please go ahead. Lets not get side tracked by hooligans, if you honestly believe that any stadium in England would now be amist with hooligans due to safe standing you are very much going to be mistaken. Hooliganism has stopped inside stadiums due to high level of CCTV and the risks involved. I could tell you many stories about violence inside all seater stadiums but as I said lets not get side tracked. Also suggest many of you read the article Joe posted about the potential extra revenue and the safe standing roadshow as some of you are suggesting it is not safe, the website will ease these concerns for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnram Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 This has nothing to do with safe standing. If you can prove or link the fact that it did then please go ahead. Lets not get side tracked by hooligans, if you honestly believe that any stadium in England would now be amist with hooligans due to safe standing you are very much going to be mistaken. Hooliganism has stopped inside stadiums due to high level of CCTV and the risks involved. I could tell you many stories about violence inside all seater stadiums but as I said lets not get side tracked. Also suggest many of you read the article Joe posted about the potential extra revenue and the safe standing roadshow as some of you are suggesting it is not safe, the website will ease these concerns for you. The reason that I picked up on that is that I regularly see the German Bundesliga quoted as an example of safety for spectators. A quick look seems to suggest that it is not the case. I think the old terracing was not really that unsafe on its own, the problem was the behaviour of football fans or should I say people who attached themselves to clubs as they could gather in large groups. Even on this forum I have read members bragging about previous violence in the 80's when they seem to be perfectly respectable in other ways. TBH I don't really care that much if other clubs have standing or not, I just prefer not to have it at Derby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therams69 Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 The reason that I picked up on that is that I regularly see the German Bundesliga quoted as an example of safety for spectators. A quick look seems to suggest that it is not the case. I think the old terracing was not really that unsafe on its own, the problem was the behaviour of football fans or should I say people who attached themselves to clubs as they could gather in large groups. Even on this forum I have read members bragging about previous violence in the 80's when they seem to be perfectly respectable in other ways. TBH I don't really care that much if other clubs have standing or not, I just prefer not to have it at Derby. Fair enough and of course you are welcome to your opinion, however, Can I please suggest that you do not post links to violence at football games that you seem to think is linked to safe standing without any proof. You are just worsening the case into what is already a battle, posting links like you have does not help. If you have evidence "a quick look" as you state that proves safe standing is linked to trouble then go ahead and post as only right that fans get to see this side of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoetheRam Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 So trouble between fans at railway stations is down to Safe Standing? I don't think so. What about Millwall v West Ham 3 years ago? That took place in an all seater stadium - does that mean all seaters contribute to hooliganism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 The reason that I picked up on that is that I regularly see the German Bundesliga quoted as an example of safety for spectators. A quick look seems to suggest that it is not the case. I think the old terracing was not really that unsafe on its own, the problem was the behaviour of football fans or should I say people who attached themselves to clubs as they could gather in large groups. Even on this forum I have read members bragging about previous violence in the 80's when they seem to be perfectly respectable in other ways. TBH I don't really care that much if other clubs have standing or not, I just prefer not to have it at Derby. actually the difference in accidents between the bundesliga and the premier league is negligible. German safety is very good, they have had incidents just like we did with millwall vs west ham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnram Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 actually the difference in accidents between the bundesliga and the premier league is negligible. German safety is very good, they have had incidents just like we did with millwall vs west ham. I think you are guessing with that little quote young man 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I think you are guessing with that little quote young man 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> I am really not, it was on the fsf website I believe 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' /> or an article in the guardian or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 can't find the article I saw it in, it was a while back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoetheRam Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 The amount of injuries suffered by spectators in the Bundesliga is roughly the same as at Premier League matches (i.e.very low). There are something like 400 reported injuries each year in each league, despite the Bundesliga having higher attendances. Interesting fact: 31 people were injured falling off seats in the 2009/2010 season in England. How many were injured by terracing/standing up? I'll give you a clue, it's less than 31. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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