Palestine

[Alph]

2 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

I just think you're giving what is a shameless violent ruthless cowardly terrorist group way too much credit tbh. Whether you like it or not, Israel is the most democratic state in the region by a pretty long chalk. 

Shameless violently ruthless cowardly terrorist.... you're describing IDF? I have an open invite to West Bank that I've not taken up. You can be my +1 and tell the Palestinians there how brave, courageous and noble the law abiding IDF are. 

I'm suggesting Hamas are smart. Not good. 

Being the most liberal democratic state is not a free pass to do whatever they like to other people. Including the Muslim Arabs in Israel that are not equal. And the African Jews. 

https://decolonizepalestine.com/myth/israel-is-a-democracy/

Edited November 24, 2023 by Alpha

[Comrade 86]

4 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

I just think you're giving what is a shameless violent ruthless cowardly terrorist group way too much credit tbh. Whether you like it or not, Israel is the most democratic state in the region by a pretty long chalk. 

I'm not sure how the systematic slaughter of 14,000 civilians speaks to 'democracy'. When a state's response to losing 1,400 of their civilians is to kill ten times as many in retribution, debates for the moral high ground seem more than a tad fatuous. 

[Alph]

What's Itamar Ben-Gvar saying? 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ahead-of-slated-palestinian-prisoner-release-ben-gvir-tells-police-to-shut-down-celebrations/

[uttoxram75]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

What's Itamar Ben-Gvar saying? 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ahead-of-slated-palestinian-prisoner-release-ben-gvir-tells-police-to-shut-down-celebrations/

He's saying he's one of the worst bamfords on the planet. 

At least he's honest.

[Alph]

1 hour ago, uttoxram75 said:

He's saying he's one of the worst bamfords on the planet. 

At least he's honest.

It's ok. He's in good company.

President Isaac Herzog stated: “It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. This rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved, it’s absolutely not true. They could’ve risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime.” 

“We will eliminate everything — they will regret it,” said Defense Minister Yoav Gallant. 

 “our focus is on (creating) damage, not on precision. There is one and only (one) solution, which is to completely destroy Gaza before invading it. I mean destruction like what happened in Dresden and Hiroshima, without nuclear weapons.”  Moshe Feiglin, a former prominent Likud Knesset member. 

Former Justice Minister Gideon Sa’ar stated that the Gaza Strip “must be smaller at the end of the war … Whoever starts a war against Israel must lose territory.”

Nissim Vaturi, the deputy Knesset speaker, threatened: “Nakba? Expel them all. If the Egyptians care so much for them — they are welcome to have them wrapped in cellophane tied with a green ribbon.”

There's more about Amalek and the benefits of Cholera and typhoid rife in Gaza. 

Obviously Sky News etc has exposed these right wing lunatics in the "Israel-Hamas War" coverage. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Alpha

[Leeds Ram]

18 hours ago, Comrade 86 said:

I'm not sure how the systematic slaughter of 14,000 civilians speaks to 'democracy'. When a state's response to losing 1,400 of their civilians is to kill ten times as many in retribution, debates for the moral high ground seem more than a tad fatuous. 

You're confusing wartime responses with whether a state is democratic or not. One is not necessarily congruent with the other. 

[Leeds Ram]

22 hours ago, Highgate said:

It is, if you are not a Palestinian. Especially one of those that was born there but never allowed to return to the country of their birth by the 'democratic' state of Israel. 

It's interesting to speculate what the situation in the Middle East would look like now if Iran had been allowed to keep it's nascent democracy in the 1950s, rather than having the US and UK destroy it, and replace it with a pliant, if brutal, dictator. I guess that's something we will never know. 

It seems to me that the Hamas attack was intended to prolong the war with Israel and prevent peace at all costs. A twisted and immoral strategy no doubt, but the overwhelming response from the IDF is probably exactly what they hoped for. 

I mean the whole mossadegh thing is quite complicated if you read around it in a bit of depth. Potentially would have been a democratic Iran but there is an argument to say it would have turned into another form of arab nationalist dictatorship in the end anyway. 

[Comrade 86]

2 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

You're confusing wartime responses with whether a state is democratic or not. One is not necessarily congruent with the other. 

No, I'm really not.

[Leeds Ram]

21 hours ago, Alpha said:

Shameless violently ruthless cowardly terrorist.... you're describing IDF? I have an open invite to West Bank that I've not taken up. You can be my +1 and tell the Palestinians there how brave, courageous and noble the law abiding IDF are. 

I'm suggesting Hamas are smart. Not good. 

Being the most liberal democratic state is not a free pass to do whatever they like to other people. Including the Muslim Arabs in Israel that are not equal. And the African Jews. 

https://decolonizepalestine.com/myth/israel-is-a-democracy/

Most of this isn't really addressing what I said. I don't even think they're that smart, more desperate and bad. I didn't say it gives them a free pass, I merely said in the region they are by a long way the most democratic country.

[uttoxram75]

21 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

You're confusing wartime responses with whether a state is democratic or not. One is not necessarily congruent with the other. 

Its not a war. Only one side has an Army, Navy and Air Force.

[Leeds Ram]

5 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

No, I'm really not.

I didn't speak to the moral questions about the war merely the fact that Israel qualifies as a democracy.

[Leeds Ram]

3 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

Its not a war. Only one side has an Army, Navy and Air Force.

it would likely qualify as more than a civil conflict due to the death toll right now I would say. I'd call it an intra-state war. Hamas has an armed wing of the organisation which is dedicated to fighting.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Leeds Ram

[uttoxram75]

1 minute ago, Leeds Ram said:

it would likely qualify as more than a civil conflict due to the death toll right now I would say. I'd call it an intra-state war

I would call it genocide. One of the strongest military states in the world killing civilians by the thousands. That's not warfare Leeds.

[Leeds Ram]

8 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

I would call it genocide. One of the strongest military states in the world killing civilians by the thousands. That's not warfare Leeds.

It's also likely not genocide given the legal definition and requirements of the word to meet the criteria. Eminent yale historian samuel moyn who has written a fantastic book called 'humane' on the history of warfare has spoken about how Israel still maintains legal limitations of war which in comparison to warfare from the 1950's-1970's is far less destructive.  

Edited November 25, 2023 by Leeds Ram

[uttoxram75]

5 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

It's also likely not genocide given the legal definition and requirements of the word to meet the criteria. Eminent yale historian samuel moyn who has written a fantastic book called 'humane' on the history of warfare has spoken about how Israel still maintains legal limitations of war which in comparison to warfare from the 1950's-1970's is far less destructive.  

Wow. If that's your take then our conversation is done mate.

[Leeds Ram]

Just now, uttoxram75 said:

Wow. If that's your take then our conversation is done mate.

That's my take and an expert's take on warfare and its legal limitations yeah. But fair play if you don't want to continue. 

[Alph]

2 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

Most of this isn't really addressing what I said. I don't even think they're that smart, more desperate and bad. I didn't say it gives them a free pass, I merely said in the region they are by a long way the most democratic country.

And I posted a link which explains clearly why their democracy has several flaws in what makes a democracy. 

You don't think Hamas are smart? You think they live in caves shooting AK's at the ceiling shouting "death to the west"

Israel are smart though? Hence some of the most hilariously bad propaganda and blatant genocidal talk to go along with their decision to give up so much military advantage to go into urban combat. 

You said @Comrade 86was confusing a wartime response with whether a state is democratic or not. Is it possible October 7th was a response To the 150 dead Palestinians up to July? Did you know about those? How many children died in Palestine before October 7th? Do you know? 

Stop watching Hollywood films if you actually believe terrorists are just mindless murderers.(unless sponsored by America obvs) Hamas share a lot in common with the very smart and presentable Netenyahu. Amalekite? Sorry I meant, am I right?

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Alpha
Forgot to add terrorists sponsored by America are the smart ones

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Leeds Ram said:

That's my take and an expert's take on warfare and its legal limitations yeah. But fair play if you don't want to continue. 

You pick and choose the experts I've noticed. 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, uttoxram75 said:

Wow. If that's your take then our conversation is done mate.

This is the guy that said something along the lines of a free state of Palestine wouldn't be the utopia many imagine and would give terrorists more room to operate. 

That's what he thinks of Palestinians. 

And it's beautifully ironic that the democratic state of Israel (which isn't so democratic if your not the right type of citizen) is a state that breaches international law, murders Palestinians taking their homes, refuses to sign off on human rights laws/Rome Statute, ignores the International Criminal Court demands, doesn't show up to UN hearings on their military operations, holds Palestinians prisoners without charge....

The Arabs should just stop moaning and accept it's for the best. They're so uncivilised. 

 

[Alph]

3 hours ago, Leeds Ram said:

I mean the whole mossadegh thing is quite complicated if you read around it in a bit of depth. Potentially would have been a democratic Iran but there is an argument to say it would have turned into another form of arab nationalist dictatorship in the end anyway. 

See, you can see from your post history in this thread and in the Ukraine thread referencing Trump/Afghanistan to get a good idea of what you think is an acceptable treatment of those Arab Muslim nations. Never once have I seen you speak on behalf of them. You'll justify drone strikes in Afghanistan, war in Iraq, you said (ref Israel) "the land grab is a problem"..... 

You discredit Finklestein, Pappe... I'm guessing Haaretz journalists are clueless, Raz Segal and any other expert or opinion you don't like. You say Palestine would probably be a terrorist breeding ground and Iran would probably be... 

Israel is not equal to all its citizens but it's a democracy so therefore it's much better than Jordan and whatever it does you can't possibly condemn. 

Hamas aren't smart at all. 

See, despite my bias I've never wavered from my position on Hamas. I've called them out exactly for what they are. But you managed "land grab".... It's terrorism. It's terrorism on Palestinians. 

We're looking at up to 15,000 dead. Babies dying because theres no power. Lack of evidence and terrible fake propaganda attempts to cover their tracks. Have you been oblivious to the things they actually say in that government? Really? It's Hitler level

I can say Israel has a right to defend itself. When it's actually defending. You could never say that about Palestinians. You could never imagine an Israel so aggressive that a group like Hamas should grow in numbers because Palestinians would rather die on the spot than be displaced. 

You've been outed. Go sit with Genocide Joe and tell him there's $500b pot of gold for the winner. Let's pretend he doesn't know and America aren't the most destabilising country on the globe. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Alpha