Is Warne living on borrowed time?

[Comrade 86]

13 minutes ago, sage said:

Last 20 games. Won 6 Drew 5 and Lost 9

I'm not calling for him to be sacked but anyone who thinks he isn't under pressure is in Dreamland.

Do you mean as a result of the two games played?

[sage]

3 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Why 20 games? Is that a valuable arbitrary cut off point? If you factored in 25 games, the stats are 11 - 5 - 9. You have included our slump in form, and cut it off right before we came to form. That's a blatantly cherry picked statistic. 

Someone else mentioned it, I didn't research it.

However, there is a persistent drop off in Warne teams in March/April.

11-5-9 if you wish to cherry pick yourself isn't top 6 form.

The first half I saw and subsequent interviews suggest something is wrong or going off behind the scenes. No vast iron evidence, just a gut feeling. It's starting to feel very Pearson 

 

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, Stockyram92 said:

Last season we had a team thrown together at the last minute, no real pre season and we didn't look anywhere near as much of a mess as we do now, so I can see why some people see that argument as a bit of a cop out 

We didn't look a mess Vs Wigan. People keep repeating it, it doesn't make it anymore true. We were fine against Wigan and more than matched them, and they are likely to be one of the stronger sides in the division. Last year on opening day we scraped past Oxford who were in my opinion a weaker team.

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, sage said:

Someone else mentioned it, I didn't research it.

However, there is a persistent drop off in Warne teams in March/April.

11-5-9 if you wish to cherry pick yourself isn't top 6 form.

The first half I saw and subsequent interviews suggest something is wrong or going off behind the scenes. No vast iron evidence, just a gut feeling. It's starting to feel very Pearson 

 

I don't feel the need to cherry pick statistics, purely pointing out that was exactly what you were doing when you mentioned 20 games. That also doesn't include context of fixtures.

It wasn't top 6 form, hence why we dropped off. We had a dip in form, nobody is denying that. The point is that it's not hugely relevant at this stage.

If that is a persistent issue in Warne's teams I'm sure there is a dataset to prove it? 

 

[sage]

1 minute ago, Comrade 86 said:

Do you mean as a result of the two games played?

As I mentioned the last 20 games, no, not entirely.

I don't think Clowes is sharpening his axe, but there is pressure there. He spoke about it himself, admitting that not getting promotion this year could see him sacked.

Due to the Bird comment, one other interesting section of the interview has been largely overlooked. He mentioned we were pre season favourites but that the current squad doesn't reflect that.

As he mentioned he can only bring 3 in and make that 2 if he has to pay a fee, I think he is angling for more money. How Clowes will react to that will be interesting 

 

[Stockyram92]

2 minutes ago, Andicis said:

We didn't look a mess Vs Wigan. People keep repeating it, it doesn't make it anymore true. We were fine against Wigan and more than matched them, and they are likely to be one of the stronger sides in the division. Last year on opening day we scraped past Oxford who were in my opinion a weaker team.

But the consistent unforced defensive errors, which stretch back to the end of last season too are what you would have expected of last seasons team after the summer we had, not of a team thats had proper preparation 

But people talk about them like it was only in the Wigan game, but its not, we saw it again last night, numerous times towards the end of last season, we've heavily strengthen the defence and its still happening now, at some point you have to look away from the players and consider maybe it's the way they're being coached or told to play do you not?  I think thats a fair point although you're entitled to disagree 

[sage]

2 minutes ago, Andicis said:

I don't feel the need to cherry pick statistics, purely pointing out that was exactly what you were doing when you mentioned 20 games. That also doesn't include context of fixtures.

It wasn't top 6 form, hence why we dropped off. We had a dip in form, nobody is denying that. The point is that it's not hugely relevant at this stage.

If that is a persistent issue in Warne's teams I'm sure there is a dataset to prove it? 

 

Yes. The data has been quoted on here, as I was quoting someone else's data.

You just did cherry pick, but hey ho.

I'm more concerned with what I see than stats. 

[sage]

8 minutes ago, Andicis said:

We didn't look a mess Vs Wigan. People keep repeating it, it doesn't make it anymore true. We were fine against Wigan and more than matched them, and they are likely to be one of the stronger sides in the division. Last year on opening day we scraped past Oxford who were in my opinion a weaker team.

As well as conceding 4 goals in those 2 games, the opposition has missed three 1 on 1s and several other good chances.

Other than the Wigan 2nd goal the goals haven't been against the run of play.

Blackpool could have been 5 up at ht.

A Blackpool team that made 7 changes from Saturday.

 

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, Stockyram92 said:

But the consistent unforced defensive errors, which stretch back to the end of last season too are what you would have expected of last seasons team after the summer we had, not of a team thats had proper preparation 

But people talk about them like it was only in the Wigan game, but its not, we saw it again last night, numerous times towards the end of last season, we've heavily strengthen the defence and its still happening now, at some point you have to look away from the players and consider maybe it's the way they're being coached or told to play do you not?  I think thats a fair point although you're entitled to disagree 

Did we make consistent unforced errors last year? I'd like to see numbers backing that point, or is it entirely anecdotal?

We've had a 3 really bad errors in 2 games, it's not good. Nelson also made a mistake vs Sheff Utd in preseason. But it's a brand new defensive unit, I think it'll settle down. 

You admit we've changed the defence, and yet you're surprised the players not yet accustomed to playing with each other are making errors? You think Warne told Wildsmith to flap at it? I don't think so. And I think if you were to make that point, you already have an agenda. 

[Andicis]

Just now, sage said:

As well as conceding 4 goals in those 2 games, the opposition has missed three 1 on 1s and several other good chances.

Other than the Wigan 2nd goal the goals haven't been against the run of play.

Blackpool could have been 5 up at ht.

A Blackpool team that made 7 changes from Saturday.

 

I don't believe Wigan's opening was in the running of play, they weren't on top at the stage it happened. The second was a sucker punch when we looked completely dominant. They missed the one on one right after we conceded the first and looked a bit shellshocked.

Last night we were rubbish. Happens. We also made changes? Surely that should also be referenced? That is of course provided you are discussing in good faith, which I doubt. 

[Andicis]

4 minutes ago, sage said:

Yes. The data has been quoted on here, as I was quoting someone else's data.

You just did cherry pick, but hey ho.

I'm more concerned with what I see than stats. 

I cherry picked to prove my point of how easy it was to skew stats and how easy it was to regurgitate data to fit a narrative, and it was fairly effective. 

[sage]

3 minutes ago, Andicis said:

I cherry picked to prove my point of how easy it was to skew stats and how easy it was to regurgitate data to fit a narrative, and it was fairly effective. 

Yes we look like a md table team or a bottom half team.

We made 4 changes as opposed to their 7. 

 

What do you thing of our squad? How well placed are we to improve it? Where do you feel this squad and manager take us this season? 

 

[Stockyram92]

2 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Did we make consistent unforced errors last year? I'd like to see numbers backing that point, or is it entirely anecdotal?

We've had a 3 really bad errors in 2 games, it's not good. Nelson also made a mistake vs Sheff Utd in preseason. But it's a brand new defensive unit, I think it'll settle down. 

You admit we've changed the defence, and yet you're surprised the players not yet accustomed to playing with each other are making errors? You think Warne told Wildsmith to flap at it? I don't think so. And I think if you were to make that point, you already have an agenda. 

Im not saying that no, what I'm saying is that even towards the end of last season (take the final game of the season for example) we were making very similar errors to what we have the last 2 games, and the defence had had the entire season together so obviously it isn't just a case of settling down, it's not an agenda at all, in merely pointing out the same flaws now that we're there last season, which as the manager is warned job to resolve, and based on what I've seen so far he hasn't yet, if anything we look worse

People are commenting on what has actually happened so far, that's fact, your argument is all based on ifs, buts and maybes, unless you have a crystal ball and you know for sure it's just a case of it settling down? 

[Andicis]

Just now, sage said:

Yes we look like a md table team or a bottom half team.

We made 4 changes as opposed to their 7. 

 

What do you thing of our squad? How well placed are we to improve it? Where do you feel this squad and manager take us this season? 

 

I think our squad is solid enough. Difficult to say how well placed we are to improve it. Hopefully when premier league squads are finalised we can loan a young talent to add some pace and trickery, as I think that would make a difference. 

I think this squad and manager will get a minimum of top 6. 

[Mick Brolly]

1 minute ago, sage said:

Yes we look like a md table team or a bottom half team.

We made 4 changes as opposed to their 7. 

 

What do you thing of our squad? How well placed are we to improve it? Where do you feel this squad and manager take us this season? 

 

Probably be able to have a bit more of an idea after more than 2 games 

[sage]

Just now, Andicis said:

I think our squad is solid enough. Difficult to say how well placed we are to improve it. Hopefully when premier league squads are finalised we can loan a young talent to add some pace and trickery, as I think that would make a difference. 

I think this squad and manager will get a minimum of top 6. 

This squad as it is? or this squad plus say 3 loanees of a similar standard to last years? 

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, Stockyram92 said:

Im not saying that no, what I'm saying is that even towards the end of last season (take the final game of the season for example) we were making very similar errors to what we have the last 2 games, and the defence had had the entire season together so obviously it isn't just a case of settling down, it's not an agenda at all, in merely pointing out the same flaws now that we're there last season, which as the manager is warned job to resolve, and based on what I've seen so far he hasn't yet, if anything we look worse

People are commenting on what has actually happened so far, that's fact, your argument is all based on ifs, buts and maybes, unless you have a crystal ball and you know for sure it's just a case of it settling down? 

So it is based anecdotally from the Sheffield Wednesday game. You can't claim that we were making very similar errors, and then name one singular occasion related to a player who is no longer here. It's an almost brand new defensive unit, and none of the mistakes have been alike so far. Wildsmith flapped, Bradley under hit and who knows what Elder was thinking.

Your case is made on as many ifs, buts and maybes as mine. The whole point of my argument is that TIME will tell, and that getting worked up this early on in the season might be completely foolish if we then solidify our defence and cut the errors out going forwards. I don't have a crystal ball, nor do you. You're attempting to extrapolate two games out as if it is indicative of anything. 

[Andicis]

2 minutes ago, sage said:

This squad as it is? or this squad plus say 3 loanees of a similar standard to last years? 

As is. I think we would solidify our position higher up with some decent loanees or extra additions. 

[Stockyram92]

3 minutes ago, Andicis said:

So it is based anecdotally from the Sheffield Wednesday game. You can't claim that we were making very similar errors, and then name one singular occasion related to a player who is no longer here. It's an almost brand new defensive unit, and none of the mistakes have been alike so far. Wildsmith flapped, Bradley under hit and who knows what Elder was thinking.

Your case is made on as many ifs, buts and maybes as mine. The whole point of my argument is that TIME will tell, and that getting worked up this early on in the season might be completely foolish if we then solidify our defence and cut the errors out going forwards. I don't have a crystal ball, nor do you. You're attempting to extrapolate two games out as if it is indicative of anything. 

But thats my point, you're saying time will tell, none of us have a crystal ball or know for certain, but what I'm getting at is its unfair to completely dismiss any opinion that doesn't match yours, when it could well be proved that the doubters or "numpties" as you call them could be correct, I just don't know why you're so adamant that you're right? When in reality you're just basing it all on hope, and last night there was no hope! I dont think you can blame people for having their doubts after what they've seen so far, it certainly doesn't mean that it's some personal attack on Paul Warne, last night we were dog s***, and people are entitled to be concerned and call people out for that 

[Andicis]

1 minute ago, Stockyram92 said:

But thats my point, you're saying time will tell, none of us have a crystal ball or know for certain, but what I'm getting at is its unfair to completely dismiss any opinion that doesn't match yours, when it could well be proved that the doubters or "numpties" as you call them could be correct, I just don't know why you're so adamant that you're right? When in reality you're just basing it all on hope, and last night there was no hope! I dont think you can blame people for having their doubts after what they've seen so far, it certainly doesn't mean that it's some personal attack on Paul Warne, last night we were dog s***, and people are entitled to be concerned and call people out for that 

I'm dismissing people calling for the manager to be sacked or writing the season off after one meh game and one bad game. I stand by that. And even if it doesn't improve and we eventually do part ways with Warne, I will still stand by that because he deserves a bloody chance.