The Ukraine War

[Ram-Alf]

S.O.E. 😉

https://news.sky.com/story/how-the-covert-ukrainian-resistance-movement-is-operating-behind-russian-lines-13202230

[ramit]

You will not want to hear this, so here it is

 

[ramit]

Apologies for the rude intro to the video

[Crewton]

Jeffrey Sachs is quite a case. People should check out his range of opinions. It's all there : China advocacy, including denial of oppression of the Uighur people, defence of Huawei and Chinese foreign policy. Russia advocacy over the Ukraine War and Nordstream explosion, support for Assad in Syria - he absolutely adores Dictators who oppress their own people. Human rights he ain't so big on.

 

[Ram-Alf]

10 hours ago, ramit said:

You will not want to hear this, so here it is

 

Why would posters not want to hear this, We're not all Hawkes or ultra right wing conservatives, I agree with what Sachs says, A lot of the worlds problems can be pointed at the USA, NATOs expansion(USA) was an issue, Threats to the east saying if you want protection from the danger of Russia come on down and join us, Closer and closer NATO moves east, Russia is getting a little agitated, This is all out there even before your post @ramit, Fools we're not, Wet behind the ears we're not.

But now here's the rub, Ukraine and a huge proportion of the Ukrainian people wanted the freedoms of the west without the influence of Russia, Unfortunately they wanted to join the EU, Putin saw this as the last straw and attacked in February 2022...why?

Ukraine didn't to my knowledge attack Russia, But Russia decided to attack Ukraine, The rest is history, Where now both the USA/UK are talking about giving Ukraine permission to use long range missiles, It's a proxy war that the west didn't see but a war that the USA led Hawkes did...I don't see an end to this...do you?

PS...WW1 was started in the 1870s with the Franco/German war, Then it became an arms race in the early 1900s, The Kiel canal was enlarged so Germany could move their Dreadnaughts quicker to the north sea, Germany wanted what other colonial countries had their share of Africa and a "place in the Sun" Serbia was the catalyst...not a USA Hawk in sight.

We could go back and forth for an eternity on this, The USA believe in the $, While Russia fear freedom for it's people.

Hawkes=Oligarchs 👍  

[ramit]

8 hours ago, Ram-Alf said:

Why would posters not want to hear this, We're not all Hawkes or ultra right wing conservatives, I agree with what Sachs says, A lot of the worlds problems can be pointed at the USA, NATOs expansion(USA) was an issue, Threats to the east saying if you want protection from the danger of Russia come on down and join us, Closer and closer NATO moves east, Russia is getting a little agitated, This is all out there even before your post @ramit, Fools we're not, Wet behind the ears we're not.

But now here's the rub, Ukraine and a huge proportion of the Ukrainian people wanted the freedoms of the west without the influence of Russia, Unfortunately they wanted to join the EU, Putin saw this as the last straw and attacked in February 2022...why?

Ukraine didn't to my knowledge attack Russia, But Russia decided to attack Ukraine, The rest is history, Where now both the USA/UK are talking about giving Ukraine permission to use long range missiles, It's a proxy war that the west didn't see but a war that the USA led Hawkes did...I don't see an end to this...do you?

PS...WW1 was started in the 1870s with the Franco/German war, Then it became an arms race in the early 1900s, The Kiel canal was enlarged so Germany could move their Dreadnaughts quicker to the north sea, Germany wanted what other colonial countries had their share of Africa and a "place in the Sun" Serbia was the catalyst...not a USA Hawk in sight.

We could go back and forth for an eternity on this, The USA believe in the $, While Russia fear freedom for it's people.

Hawkes=Oligarchs 👍  

Russia considers NATO an existential threat, that's their motivation, creating a buffer.

The huge proportion you mention was still the minority, as election results showed.  Freedom you say, okay, I think even the Americans have mostly stopped using that word.

I really don't see a way out of this mess and feel even stronger than before the danger of escalation.  Russia claims that long range missiles capable of striking deep into Russia proper would make the western powers direct participants in the war.  If we had a working UN there would be some hope for a solution.  Who can mediate talks?  Finding a truly neutral country seems not doable.

Perhaps only the common people on both sides are the only force that can pressure the warring sides to negotiate, but that doesn't seem likely atm, as folks are dug in with opposite opinions fed to them by "their side"

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, ramit said:

I really don't see a way out of this mess and feel even stronger than before the danger of escalation.  Russia claims that long range missiles capable of striking deep into Russia proper would make the western powers direct participants in the war.  If we had a working UN there would be some hope for a solution.  Who can mediate talks?  Finding a truly neutral country seems not doable.

Equally Iran, N Korea et al feeding Russia with weapons, I see the Yemen sent a long range missile into Israel last week, The world is getting messier by the week.

In the end...imo, Ukraine will be forced by the west to give up land which will be "the buffer zone", Putin's not fussed on how many lives he loses, The west wont send their forces to support Ukraine...the stalemate will have to be broken at some time...it's who's going to blink 1st. 

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, ramit said:

The huge proportion you mention was still the minority, as election results showed. 

This IRI survey from March 2014 indicated that those who would definitely vote YES in a referendum to join the EU was  53% (as per Brexit OUT vote). Interestingly, only a minority were in favour of joining NATO, though a majority preferred economic relations with the EU over Russia.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.iri.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/201420April20520IRI20Public20Opinion20Survey20of20Ukraine2C20March2014-262C202014.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjH8OWCoMeIAxXvW0EAHbXsKjsQFnoECBgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2UNlKe6Q6OdaZ6R488eywL

I think those majorities in favour would be much bigger today. That's Putin's "victory" - he's turned a population that in general wanted friendly relations with Russia on an equal footing into a population that are desperate to be protected from Russian "brotherly relations".

Scaring Sweden and Finland into becoming NATO members is a staggering own goal too. Who among its neighbours would ever trust Russia again?

 

Edited Monday at 10:47 by Crewton

[Archied]

The amount of people high up clamouring for us to get stuck in is a huge worry and the rhetoric is same old same old , my fave is the well worn axis of evil , it’s really only about who keeps hold of the power / control upper hand of the planet’s resources, strongest economic and military position, the west have held it for a long time and will not give it up without a fight and perhaps an end times fight

[Crewton]

3 hours ago, Archied said:

The amount of people high up clamouring for us to get stuck in is a huge worry and the rhetoric is same old same old , my fave is the well worn axis of evil , it’s really only about who keeps hold of the power / control upper hand of the planet’s resources, strongest economic and military position, the west have held it for a long time and will not give it up without a fight and perhaps an end times fight

I don't know what's given you the idea that the west controls the planets resources. Look what has happened in Europe when Putin has arbitrarily cut-off gas supplies to former Eastern Bloc states, and to energy prices all over Europe because of the war in Ukraine.

Russia has been sending it's mercenaries like the Wagner Group and its succesor, the Africa Corps, to do the dirty work for dictators and rebel groups in exchange for mineral rights and Free Ports for Russian ships of all denomination. China's belt and road policy has achieved similar influence by locking-in countries with stringent agreements. The West (that's US btw) has already lost that contest.

Despite what you say, the USA has shown no inclination or desire to "get stuck in" directly and, without them, NATO will not do so either unless Putin crosses that red line. If Trump gets elected, America will withdraw support from Ukraine. Without that support, and with Russia continuing to receive weapons from Iran, China and North Korea, Ukraine will eventually be overrun. Putin will have no interest in negotiations by then, and will in all likelihood take tacit control of the whole country. And then it will be time to get REALLY worried.

[MaltRam]

3 hours ago, Archied said:

, it’s really only about who keeps hold of the power

It isn't. It's about something far more fundamental and vital. It's about democracy, freedon and enlightenment values. 

The minute we cave to the idea that there's no difference between the UK and Russia we might as well give up.

Some things ARE worth dying for.

[Archied]

8 hours ago, Crewton said:

I don't know what's given you the idea that the west controls the planets resources. Look what has happened in Europe when Putin has arbitrarily cut-off gas supplies to former Eastern Bloc states, and to energy prices all over Europe because of the war in Ukraine.

Russia has been sending it's mercenaries like the Wagner Group and its succesor, the Africa Corps, to do the dirty work for dictators and rebel groups in exchange for mineral rights and Free Ports for Russian ships of all denomination. China's belt and road policy has achieved similar influence by locking-in countries with stringent agreements. The West (that's US btw) has already lost that contest.

Despite what you say, the USA has shown no inclination or desire to "get stuck in" directly and, without them, NATO will not do so either unless Putin crosses that red line. If Trump gets elected, America will withdraw support from Ukraine. Without that support, and with Russia continuing to receive weapons from Iran, China and North Korea, Ukraine will eventually be overrun. Putin will have no interest in negotiations by then, and will in all likelihood take tacit control of the whole country. And then it will be time to get REALLY worried.

I don’t think they do control all the planet’s resources NOW , smart moves by other nations over time and the ploy of engineering regime changes in country s to favour the USA and the poo is getting closer to the fan as that reality starts to bite economically, 

im sure we disagree on this but our loons worry me more than putin , unless of course we can bring on the regime change we want in Russia , 

[Archied]

8 hours ago, MaltRam said:

It isn't. It's about something far more fundamental and vital. It's about democracy, freedon and enlightenment values. 

The minute we cave to the idea that there's no difference between the UK and Russia we might as well give up.

Some things ARE worth dying for.

Oh come on , those things don’t matter a fig to us in areas the world over that hold nothing for us or bend to us already for that guff to be even slightly believable as our motives , 

Edited Tuesday at 18:48 by Archied

[Crewton]

13 hours ago, Archied said:

I don’t think they do control all the planet’s resources NOW , smart moves by other nations over time and the ploy of engineering regime changes in country s to favour the USA and the poo is getting closer to the fan as that reality starts to bite economically, 

im sure we disagree on this but our loons worry me more than putin , unless of course we can bring on the regime change we want in Russia , 

You're wrong on the first point. Take Rare Earth Minerals as a prime example, probably the most important commodity in the development of new technologies and clean energy. 4 of the countries with the top 5 reserves of REMs are all BRICS countries (South Africa the only one not featured) whilst the country with the 2nd largest reserves is Vietnam (hardly a friend of the USA). China has by far the largest reserves at 44 million MT, 6x those of the USA and Australia. Myanmar (linked closer to China than anyone else) has unknown reserves but was the 3rd largest producer of REMs in 2023 (guess who has first dibs on those). What China and Russia are doing in Africa is in pursuit of control of the largest reserves of other precious raw materials. So the West is now playing catch-up in this latest Great Game.

The second point is a matter of personal opinion, but I'm puzzled by your statement, since the biggest loon in the west has already said he'll end the war in Ukraine in a day, and he doesn't mean "Nuke Russia". Putin and his mouthpieces are the only ones who have threatened nuclear war, including a threat to "send Britain back to the stone age".

[Archied]

4 hours ago, Crewton said:

You're wrong on the first point. Take Rare Earth Minerals as a prime example, probably the most important commodity in the development of new technologies and clean energy. 4 of the countries with the top 5 reserves of REMs are all BRICS countries (South Africa the only one not featured) whilst the country with the 2nd largest reserves is Vietnam (hardly a friend of the USA). China has by far the largest reserves at 44 million MT, 6x those of the USA and Australia. Myanmar (linked closer to China than anyone else) has unknown reserves but was the 3rd largest producer of REMs in 2023 (guess who has first dibs on those). What China and Russia are doing in Africa is in pursuit of control of the largest reserves of other precious raw materials. So the West is now playing catch-up in this latest Great Game.

The second point is a matter of personal opinion, but I'm puzzled by your statement, since the biggest loon in the west has already said he'll end the war in Ukraine in a day, and he doesn't mean "Nuke Russia". Putin and his mouthpieces are the only ones who have threatened nuclear war, including a threat to "send Britain back to the stone age".

I said I don’t think we control the majority of the world’s resources now  , the problem is the west is waking up to that now where others have been smarter and forward thinking ,

not seeing any Russian supplied and financed weapons killing Britons 

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

I said I don’t think we control the majority of the world’s resources now  , the problem is the west is waking up to that now where others have been smarter and forward thinking ,

not seeing any Russian supplied and financed weapons killing Britons 

First paragraph - I'm glad we agree on this, because it didn't sound like it from your previous post that I replied to.

2nd para - where do you think all those Kalashnikovs in the hands of the IRA and Iranian militias in Basra came from? That's just one example of their support for forces fighting British troops since WW2. And they used their own polonium to murder people in London and Salisbury.

[MaltRam]

On 17/09/2024 at 19:48, Archied said:

Oh come on , those things don’t matter a fig to us in areas the world over that hold nothing for us or bend to us already for that guff to be even slightly believable as our motives , 

Doesn't matter a fig?

There's no material difference to life in the UK or France vs Russia or Iran?

Just for clarity.

[Alph]

What’s wrong with life in Russia? Genuinely. 

Iran, great safe country to visit with low crime rates and friendly people living under a cruel, greedy dictatorship… not so good. 
 

Not sure the two are similar

[Archied]

1 hour ago, MaltRam said:

Doesn't matter a fig?

There's no material difference to life in the UK or France vs Russia or Iran?

Just for clarity.

The post was clearly that there’s areas of the world with far far worse situations than Russia that we have not a jot of interest in riding in on our white charger and upholding OUR values and ways of life in , democracy, freedom ect ect ect , it’s tub thumping garbage perhaps if they were honest about they’re reasons for getting up to our ears in something that could very easily turn into world war then at least you could respect that and make a judgement 

[MaltRam]

41 minutes ago, Archied said:

The post was clearly that there’s areas of the world with far far worse situations than Russia that we have not a jot of interest in riding in on our white charger and upholding OUR values and ways of life in , democracy, freedom ect ect ect , it’s tub thumping garbage perhaps if they were honest about they’re reasons for getting up to our ears in something that could very easily turn into world war then at least you could respect that and make a judgement 

Which areas are far worse than Russia?

Which ones of those represent an existential threat to our way of life and values?

Russia does. They invaded a neighbour. They murder anyone who gets in their way. They sow discord and undermine us in any way they can. They treat human life as utterly dispensible. If they get away with it in Ukraine, what's next? If putting a stop to that means world war, who's fault is that? Keir Starmer? The US miltary-industrial complex? NATO? Or Putin? We don't stop him now, we'll have to stop him later when he's stronger.