F1 2022

[Comrade 86]

Audi and Porsche confirmed as entering F1. Porsche will joining Red Bull while Audi will joining as a stand-alone team. Given recent developments, I think the Audi - Porsche alliance seems a little odd; 'Porsche would partner with the team's new engine division, which has been set up to design and build the drinks brand's own power-unit for the new engine regulations due in F1 in 2026, and the team would run as Red Bull-Porsche.' 

Hard to see any great commercial benefits for either party and even from a technical standpoint, it seems somewhat risky. And what will happen to the all of the Mercedes guys Karen poached? Very hard to see them remaining gainfully employed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/61300470

[RadioactiveWaste]

34 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Audi and Porsche confirmed as entering F1. Porsche will joining Red Bull while Audi will joining as a stand-alone team. Given recent developments, I think the Audi - Porsche alliance seems a little odd; 'Porsche would partner with the team's new engine division, which has been set up to design and build the drinks brand's own power-unit for the new engine regulations due in F1 in 2026, and the team would run as Red Bull-Porsche.' 

Hard to see any great commercial benefits for either party and even from a technical standpoint, it seems somewhat risky. And what will happen to the all of the Mercedes guys Karen poached? Very hard to see them remaining gainfully employed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/61300470

Getting VW group into F1 has been a long term ambition for FOM.

It seems weird to have Audi and Porsche as separate entities within the sport.

I can totally see the logic in either you go in with Audi (buy Sauber for example) or as an engine program (buy RB Power Trains) but doing both is odd. Even more odd if it becomes an Audi-none VE engine team.

All Horner's poached Merc engine guys will be fine, it'll just be new-logo and say Porsche on the pay cheque. They won't be moving the F1 program to Stuttgart.

I just wonder what the commitment will be and the compromise of two competing brands from the same group, especially when things go bad.

I know Porsche and Audi are competition in GT racing, but then, GT racing equalises the cars and neither are in the le man's hypercar tire. I'd rather have had one go LMH and one go F1.

[Comrade 86]

4 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Getting VW group into F1 has been a long term ambition for FOM.

It seems weird to have Audi and Porsche as separate entities within the sport.

I can totally see the logic in either you go in with Audi (buy Sauber for example) or as an engine program (buy RB Power Trains) but doing both is odd. Even more odd if it becomes an Audi-none VE engine team.

All Horner's poached Merc engine guys will be fine, it'll just be new-logo and say Porsche on the pay cheque. They won't be moving the F1 program to Stuttgart.

I just wonder what the commitment will be and the compromise of two competing brands from the same group, especially when things go bad.

I know Porsche and Audi are competition in GT racing, but then, GT racing equalises the cars and neither are in the le man's hypercar tire. I'd rather have had one go LMH and one go F1.

Exactly! Reading the article it does rather seem that despite ultimately being under the same VW banner, the latter were not massively keen on the proposition and have ended up tolerating the move in a similar fashion as weary parents might do with squabbling siblings. That said, I'm not that averse to the added competition in principle, though I'd hate any such move to further strengthen Red Bull's hand. Not that I'm an embittered Karen hater, of course! 

[Andicis]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/61251337

I'm hoping that with the changes that Mercedes are bringing that they can reduce porpoising significantly. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

33 minutes ago, Andicis said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/61251337

I'm hoping that with the changes that Mercedes are bringing that they can reduce porpoising significantly. 

If they do fix it, I think the Merc will be fasy. Still a big if though.

38 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Exactly! Reading the article it does rather seem that despite ultimately being under the same VW banner, the latter were not massively keen on the proposition and have ended up tolerating the move in a similar fashion as weary parents might do with squabbling siblings. That said, I'm not that averse to the added competition in principle, though I'd hate any such move to further strengthen Red Bull's hand. Not that I'm an embittered Karen hater, of course! 

Ultimatly it'll come down to how much willpower VW really have for it. I think the Porsche engine thing is far more likely to happen, it's do-able, there's existing resources in RB Power trains to take over/integrate with and much less brand risk if it goes bad (e.g. the engine is fine - blame red bull) and the engine is going in the back of a competetive team partner. I can see that one happening.

An Audi F1 team is a whole different level, and an Audi F1 team that sucks could even be bad (remember Jaguar racing?) - The will to do it would need to much higher, as well as the cost. Audi building their own F1 engine I just don't see. If they do go team Audi the engine will end up being re-badged version of the Porsche one (is my guess). I suspect VW won't ultimatly have the stomach for running a works team. They might end up doing what Alpha Romeo do with Sauber and it's more a branding exercise of an existing team (Williams, Alpine if renault decide they're done with F1 yet again etc)

 

[Andicis]

 

[Comrade 86]

7 hours ago, Andicis said:

 

Christ. They were meant to have focussed on the 2022 car in 2021! A spectaclular fall from grace by any standards.

[Andicis]

5 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Christ. They were meant to have focussed on the 2022 car in 2021! A spectaclular fall from grace by any standards.

They've got it all wrong. Having no side pods seems like it's far too unstable to compete and it might be fundamentally just a worse car. Definitely cocked this one up, in their defense they were given the least time in the wind tunnel during development and it's clear their simulators are way off the mark.

[RadioactiveWaste]

I still think there is something in the Mercedes concept - however, the real world has clearly shown it to not work as designed. 

If they get it working, they'll go from 3rd fastest car to competitive. If they can't, then yes, doomed.

What I'm interested in is, supposing they can't make the 22 car work, will they change the concept for 23 or will they refine it to alleviate the downside.

I'm also highly amused by the painted marina.

[Comrade 86]

I'm no aerodynamicist (cue collective intake of breath) but those who are seem to think that a major cause is that the car floor needs stiffening. Sounds so simple, but I guess the challenge is how to acive that without adding significantly to the weight of the car. Miami is going to be huge for Toto as if there is not a marked improvement, their season really is over. 

@Andicis what's this about restricted time wind tunnel access? Had not heard that. Seems a bit unfair, though the changes to regs these last few years do seem to have been all about negating Merc innovations and advantages derived from them.

Hopefully see a more fired up Hammy this weekend as he's been a tad half-arsed most recently after initially looking up for the challenge. Perhaps I'm judging him harshly though... 

#ABV

[Andicis]

2 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

I'm no aerodynamicist (cue collective intake of breath) but those who are seem to think that a major cause is that the car floor needs stiffening. Sounds so simple, but I guess the challenge is how to acive that without adding significantly to the weight of the car. Miami is going to be huge for Toto as if there is not a marked improvement, their season really is over. 

@Andicis what's this about restricted time wind tunnel access? Had not heard that. Seems a bit unfair, though the changes to regs these last few years do seem to have been all about negating Merc innovations and advantages derived from them.

Hopefully see a more fired up Hammy this weekend as he's been a tad half-arsed most recently after initially looking up for the challenge. Perhaps I'm judging him harshly though... 

#ABV

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.how-f1s-new-sliding-scale-aero-testing-rules-work-and-what-impact-they-will.pn0sG8N4A0cjbNRbdYx8a.html

Wind tunnel time is allocated based off performance i.e. the best gets the least time, the worst gets the most. So when Haas sacked off last year to plan for this one, they had significantly more time in the wind tunnel to test their ideas than Mercedes did, which obviously has a huge knock on impact of preparedness coming in. 

I'm feeling positive, the Mercs tend to do well on new tracks and fingers crossed all the censors Hamilton has been forced to drive with has given them good data to use on this batch of repairs. 

[Comrade 86]

2 hours ago, Andicis said:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.how-f1s-new-sliding-scale-aero-testing-rules-work-and-what-impact-they-will.pn0sG8N4A0cjbNRbdYx8a.html

Wind tunnel time is allocated based off performance i.e. the best gets the least time, the worst gets the most. So when Haas sacked off last year to plan for this one, they had significantly more time in the wind tunnel to test their ideas than Mercedes did, which obviously has a huge knock on impact of preparedness coming in. 

I'm feeling positive, the Mercs tend to do well on new tracks and fingers crossed all the censors Hamilton has been forced to drive with has given them good data to use on this batch of repairs. 

Didn't know that! So much for F1 being the pinnacle of car development. Sounds more as if they are actively hampering innovation, not encouraging it. 

[Andicis]

14 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Didn't know that! So much for F1 being the pinnacle of car development. Sounds more as if they are actively hampering innovation, not encouraging it. 

Yep! Can't allow Mercedes or Redbull a level playing field, so have to manufacture a closer fight than it would otherwise be! 

[Comrade 86]

9 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Yep! Can't allow Mercedes or Redbull a level playing field, so have to manufacture a closer fight than it would otherwise be! 

Oh, I don't mind if they hamper Red Bull ?

[Andicis]

Just now, 86 Hair Islands said:

Oh, I don't mind if they hamper Red Bull ?

[RadioactiveWaste]

1 hour ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Didn't know that! So much for F1 being the pinnacle of car development. Sounds more as if they are actively hampering innovation, not encouraging it. 

But it's always been this way.

If anyone does innovate, everyone else copies if they can, gets it banned if they can't.

The ultimate development of the ultimate racing machine in terms of the pioneering man and machine at the edge of what is possible has been somethign of an illusion probably since the 70s. Even before then, a certain team in red kept throwing toys out of the pram about how Colin Chapman and others would innovate.

The teams would all love to be in a dominant possition where they just have to show up to win and can win championships no matter who is in the car (like the mid 90s williams cars) but the organisers always want close racing, because close racing is more fun to watch.

To be fair to the FIA, it's a tricky balance to try to have an open series without it becoming completely dominated by whoever has the biggest budget and becoming boring. We don't want F1 to become a spec series like F2 or Indicar. We don't want F1 to be like GT racing where cars are equalised through "balance of Performance" measures or given success balast like touring cars. But at the same time, when a team dominates the sport they lose viewers because everyone knows who is going to win, no matter how technically brilliant the car or how brilliant the driver (Schumacher and Hamilton both).

I'm not saying the FIA have got it right with the wind tunnel restrictions (which are a kind of success penalty measure) but the mercedes car has to be blamed on mecedes engineering to have got it that wrong going from sims to track.

 

[Andicis]

Not sure if anybody watched the free practice, but encouragingly, the Mercedes is running much better. Looks way smoother. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

Not caught up with it at all.

We'll hopefully see some good things tomorrow evening.

[Andicis]

Carlos Sainz has crashed **again** in practice. Ferrari must be regretting that new contract.

[RadioactiveWaste]

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

Carlos Sainz has crashed **again** in practice. Ferrari must be regretting that new contract.

Has he been hanging around with Riccardo too much?

He really needs to take a chill pill and drive the car the way car needs to be driven.