Dean (hick) Saunders Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 Should we be hoping that the 3 relegated teams get promoted to help focus the minds of powers that be on the unfairness of the rules? If it turned into a near certainty then why would fans of other teams bother going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duracell Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 I cannot believe that anyone would be okay with ending promotion just because the Premier League is too greedy. Promotion and relegation is not the problem. Greed and money is the problem. Take relegation out of the equation, and the greed and the money is still there in the top flight. It's a bubble that will eventually burst. The sky is not the limit. The Premier League revenues are built on TV money and merchandise, and the general world population does not have bottomless pockets nor a ban on other interests. Greed will kill the game, eventually. As a country, we seem largely incapable of putting up a united front against it like Germany does. Until football's problems are solved holistically, with the entire pyramid seen as one entity, then we will be stuck in this Premier League haves/EFL have nots purgatory until football eventually eats itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 6 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: Based on the recent takeover, Burnley were valued at £240m just because they're a PL club (£200m for 84%) Our revenue would shoot up to at least £150m just from being in the PL. That's not taking into account increased sponsorship deals. Getting money from the PL does not equal infrastructure. Well done on knowing that a stadium does constitute infrastructure though. That's something we'll never match Newcastle and West Ham on. But what about training facilities, academy, etc..? We have nicer toilets at Moor Farm than Newcastle have at Darsley Park plus we have a top of the range Sonos system in reception whereas Burnley have settled for Amazon Alexa speakers. This is exactly why an investor will pick us at the place to invest their £180m, that and the fact we do the bounce better than any other Championship club. I'm guessing that's what you want me to say, coz aside from just posting what I've written again and again I'm out of ideas. We're not in the PL, we have no tangible path to the PL, by some accounts we're on the brink of administration. Coulda, shoulda, woulda doesn't win you football matches or buy you the striker to score the goals needed to do so. So I admire your optimism and your belief that somehow we're only a step or two away - I don't share that view, I've really nothing more to say than that to advance the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Rammy03 said: If a sugar daddy funded the development of Leicester. Read this, I copied and pasted from the mail so no adverts and the such...i've not missed owt out. By Adrian Durham How one club broke all the rules to get to the promissed land and stay there paid for by a Billionaire. Football has been gagging for the Leicester City story. It's been desperate for the Jamie Vardy story. It's been yearning for the Claudio Ranieri story. We needed this. We needed it so badly we are prepared to completely overlook anything remotely negative connected to Leicester City, and pretend it's all pure. Some are even calling it a fairytale. Try telling that to the ambulance service who were left short-changed when the club went into administration. That chapter of the fairytale was conveniently left out by the publishers. For too many years now, football has lost its head in a filthy sea of scandal, money and ego. Something had to happen to relight our fire and bring back to life the love for this beautiful game we hold so close to our hearts. A game that reduces us to tears, inspires extreme moods, makes us jump up and down on the spot when our team scores a goal, while at the same time making noises we couldn't spell if we tried. It's a game that makes us angry and happy in equal measure and somehow makes us move from one feeling to the other in record time. So while Leicester players were understandably drinking themselves into title-winning oblivion all week, and their captain was being dragged around Vardy's kitchen floor, we had to watch the massively overpaid lumbering figure of Yaya Toure on a walking sight-seeing tour of the Bernabeu pitch midweek in the biggest game of Manchester City's lifetime. Money will still be shovelled into his bank account so why should he care? As paying fans, we are disgusted by his attitude. It only serves to make us love Leicester City's collection of journeymen rejects even more. We are pleased for Vardy that he has a massive new contract, and followed it by purchasing a big Bentley. Funny thing is, earlier this season Memphis Depay was roundly criticised for having an expensive car. The logic for some is that if you're not playing well you shouldn't drive a fancy car. If you're in hot form breaking records, then it's fine, and we'll forget the bad stuff. Who cares if that's blatant hypocrisy, we all love Leicester's fairytale! Good luck to Vardy of course. His rise is a wonderful story. Hence the announcement this week of his new autobiography, due out in October. That leaves room for a money-spinning second edition, which will include the Foxes' Champions League exploits and how they defend their title. Brand Vardy. And to think David Beckham was once vilified for such self-promotion. Vardy's unsavoury casino incident last summer has been quickly forgotten. John Terry can only wonder why he was never cut the same slack. Vardy's diving can be swept under the carpet. Why? Because he came from non-league? Strange logic. Diego Costa dives, and he's the devil apparently. There is so much to admire about Vardy. But the fairytale ignores some very real negatives. So the fairytale isn't actually true. What else has been forgotten? The stadium is superb and earns them lots of money. But Leicester couldn't afford it. They built it, moved into it in the summer of 2002, and then a couple of months later, the club went into administration with £30million of debts. Hard-working people lost out massively. The company which built the stadium was forced to just forget about the final payment of £5.5m. The East Midlands Ambulance Service was left with a shortfall of £16,000. The romance of Leicester's title win makes this kind of story easier to forget. Leicester are awaiting a fine for breaking Financial Fair Play rules two seasons ago. This has directly helped Leicester: Vardy was on the brink of signing for another Championship club when Leicester sent his wages through the roof, blasting the rivals out of the water. Wages Leicester couldn't afford, they broke the rules. Bournemouth did the same, running up huge debts and massive wages to take a 'risk', that word was used by Bournemouth chairman Jeff Mostyn by the way. I'm a believer that if you have a rich owner who wants to give – not loan – a club huge sums of money, then why not? If you support a club and win the lottery, FFP rules would stop you spending it on your club – that's not right. But the rules are there to help clubs run more sensibly, to help stop clubs taking financial risks. If Bournemouth's risk was seen as worthwhile because they've earned the right to pig out at the Premier League trough, the message might well lead to the death of other clubs taking the 'risk.' And that's certainly not right. Leicester will be fined. But like Vardy in his Bentley, like Fuchs showering his manager with champagne on Saturday, who cares? It will be barely a footnote to the bigger story. In a few years time, watch out for the story of another club who takes risk, tries to do a Leicester by paying wages they can't afford, but this time it goes wrong and the club takes itself to the brink of existence. What kind of owner takes a 'risk' with the future of a football club? On Saturday night, social media was awash with sentimental tearful posts from neutrals – fans, players, pundits and even journalists - about how wonderful the Leicester story is. In isolation, they're meaningful messages. Read them one after another and you start to feel like you're chain-eating sickly sweets. The overriding feeling is one of joy and love for Leicester City of course; I'm up for that. If their title success brings people back to football, and helps us see through the overpaid nonsense at the 'high end' of the game, then bring it on. But there is a darker side to the fairytale, there have been innocent victims along the way. The collateral from this sweet success story shames football. Rules in place for a reason were shamelessly broken and that was happily overlooked, virtually ignored, to strengthen the narrative of little old Leicester doing what they've done. I'm as guilty as everyone else for loving Leicester a little bit more than I should. But we're doing it because we are all so desperate for a football love story, so that we can forget – if only for a season – about the greed killing the soul of our beautiful game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 25 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said: This is the problem with your analysis I think, once you receive premiership money then the investment becomes more present and realisable than when you're in the championship so it's more akin to a chicken and egg scenario. I don't remember Leicester spending silly money before their premiership win and neither have Newcastle. West Ham's fans up until last season were always complaining about the lack of cash being spent as well. There has been some investment of course, aided by TV money and owner investment but Derby is just as likely as let's say leicester to find an owner who can finance that growth. Money doesn't guarantee success either, Bournemouth for example were in the top 10 net spenders in Europe at one point during their stay in the top flight. Even in this division we've had years where we've made significant investments on players that have not worked. How you define 'infrastructure' I'm not sure... but if that means in footballing terms then our academy and training facilities are often remarked to be up there with the best in the country. Our stadium is a good size and can easily be extended to 40,000+ for a limited amount of money due to the design of the West Stand too. If you're talking about the inner structures of the clubs and their functionality then I'm not sure how you could possibly remark on any of that. If you're talking about finances then they are oftentimes skewed through premiership tv money so again you'd have to make additional revenue adjustments to our finances (which is simply a guess) to apply that logic. Being caught by gravity i.e. 'how big a club is to reflect your natural position in the football order' changes over time, therefore if your performance over a sustained number of years changes then so does your 'gravitational pull' as a club. The football order is not static, in fact it is constantly in flux which is why Leicester for instance are now considered a seriously big player. If you read between the lines of your post we're pretty much in agreement. It takes money to get promoted: we don't have it It takes money to stay promoted: we don't have it If we get the money, and spend it wisely, we can get promoted and stay promoted. I think we all agree on that? Now today, given the OP, the challenge is that not only do we not have the money but others have more and are getting more (call it infrastructure, call it cash, call it net present wealth - all different shades of the same thing). And we have no plan in place to get the money, given the takeover has fallen through and Mel has drawn the line. Again, I think we can all agree on that as well. So, back to my very first post on this thread, with there being no sign of a change in our momentum I am reconciled with watching Championship football. I don't mind it, quite enjoy the unpredictabilty of it. Doesn't mean I don't want to get promoted (facecious comments about refusing promotion aside), it just means I think it's not going to happen until something changes and I've made my peace with it - even if we have better training facilities than Leeds United. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 21 minutes ago, BaaLocks said: We have nicer toilets at Moor Farm than Newcastle have at Darsley Park plus we have a top of the range Sonos system in reception whereas Burnley have settled for Amazon Alexa speakers. This is exactly why an investor will pick us at the place to invest their £180m, that and the fact we do the bounce better than any other Championship club. I'm guessing that's what you want me to say, coz aside from just posting what I've written again and again I'm out of ideas. We're not in the PL, we have no tangible path to the PL, by some accounts we're on the brink of administration. Coulda, shoulda, woulda doesn't win you football matches or buy you the striker to score the goals needed to do so. So I admire your optimism and your belief that somehow we're only a step or two away - I don't share that view, I've really nothing more to say than that to advance the discussion. But your entire argument is based on any PL club having better infrastructure than all other clubs outside the PL. West Brom are in the PL, Brentford are currently in the Championship. I think we'll all agree West Brom's infrastructure is better than Brentford's. However, your argument says Brentford's infrastructure suddenly becomes better than West Brom's the moment they switch leagues. Is Wycombe's infrastructure better than Charlton's because their revenue is higher this season too? In terms of infrastructure, there's very little between us an Leicester. Similar stadiums, similar facilities, etc. So it wouldn't take much for us progress from where we are now to where they are. We don't even need a new owner to pump loads of money in. Get the recruitment right and the rest takes care of itself. Our stadium is smaller than Newcastle's and West Ham's, but our training and academy facilities are better. Brentford have shown you don't need to have a big budget to challenge for automatics. Even Preston have shown you can push for the playoffs on a budget close to a third of what we earn in a year. In the PL, Burnley have shown that you don't need to spend hundreds of millions to stay up. As we'd have a bigger budget than them, we'd be able to invest more into the playing staff and push on more than them without the owner spending any of his own money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 14 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: But your entire argument is based on any PL club having better infrastructure than all other clubs outside the PL. West Brom are in the PL, Brentford are currently in the Championship. I think we'll all agree West Brom's infrastructure is better than Brentford's. However, your argument says Brentford's infrastructure suddenly becomes better than West Brom's the moment they switch leagues. Is Wycombe's infrastructure better than Charlton's because their revenue is higher this season too? In terms of infrastructure, there's very little between us an Leicester. Similar stadiums, similar facilities, etc. So it wouldn't take much for us progress from where we are now to where they are. We don't even need a new owner to pump loads of money in. Get the recruitment right and the rest takes care of itself. Our stadium is smaller than Newcastle's and West Ham's, but our training and academy facilities are better. Brentford have shown you don't need to have a big budget to challenge for automatics. Even Preston have shown you can push for the playoffs on a budget close to a third of what we earn in a year. In the PL, Burnley have shown that you don't need to spend hundreds of millions to stay up. As we'd have a bigger budget than them, we'd be able to invest more into the playing staff and push on more than them without the owner spending any of his own money. Last post on this - we're going round in circles. But your entire argument is based on any PL club having better infrastructure than all other clubs outside the PL. No, it isn't. It is based on the fact that it requires significant investment to get up and then stay up. And, while you might not like it - and I don't either - we don't have significant investment. Is Wycombe's infrastructure better than Charlton's because their revenue is higher this season too? Without having seen both clubs accounts I couldn't say, but their balance sheets will have changed significantly (or rather next years will) and that will have impacted their market valuation. As for saying we'll make money when we get there please remember that all the clubs in the Premier League get lots of money, some more than others, so you need to run to stand still - it's not just a magic money tree playground. There's very little between us an Leicester Disagree So it wouldn't take much for us progress from where we are now to where they are. Disagree Get the recruitment right and the rest takes care of itself. Easy peezee, lemon squeezee innit Our stadium is smaller than Newcastle's and West Ham's, but our training and academy facilities are better. Our stadium? Do keep up. And if you think a decent academy facility trumps a 50k all seater stadium well, let's just say we disagree. Brentford have shown you don't need to have a big budget to challenge for automatics. Are you referring to the Brentford that are in the Championship? The ones that have never been in the Premier League? That Brentford? Burnley have shown that you don't need to spend hundreds of millions to stay up. As we'd have a bigger budget than them, we'd be able to invest more into the playing staff and push on more than them without the owner spending any of his own money. We'd have a bigger budget than Burnley? You certain of that? Based on what inside information exactly - the fact that Charlie George once played for us? Look, I admire your optimism and your belief - I'd love for every word to be right. Bump it when I'm wrong and I will happily eat humble pie by the bucket load. Until then, I don't think I've got anything more to add on the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 32 minutes ago, BaaLocks said: Last post on this - we're going round in circles. But your entire argument is based on any PL club having better infrastructure than all other clubs outside the PL. No, it isn't. It is based on the fact that it requires significant investment to get up and then stay up. And, while you might not like it - and I don't either - we don't have significant investment. Clearly not a fact. Burnely have had a net spend of less than £50m since they went up - funded by PL income, not owner investment. Sheff Utd didn't need much investment to go up and survive for a season. 32 minutes ago, BaaLocks said: Is Wycombe's infrastructure better than Charlton's because their revenue is higher this season too? Without having seen both clubs accounts I couldn't say, but their balance sheets will have changed significantly (or rather next years will) and that will have impacted their market valuation. As for saying we'll make money when we get there please remember that all the clubs in the Premier League get lots of money, some more than others, so you need to run to stand still - it's not just a magic money tree playground. Yes, it's pretty obvious that's how it works... 32 minutes ago, BaaLocks said: There's very little between us an Leicester Disagree So it wouldn't take much for us progress from where we are now to where they are. Disagree Get the recruitment right and the rest takes care of itself. Easy peezee, lemon squeezee innit Our stadium is smaller than Newcastle's and West Ham's, but our training and academy facilities are better. Our stadium? Do keep up. And if you think a decent academy facility trumps a 50k all seater stadium well, let's just say we disagree. Opinions. We're better in some areas, they're better in others. Still very little difference between Leicester's stadium and facilities and our own. 32 minutes ago, BaaLocks said: Brentford have shown you don't need to have a big budget to challenge for automatics. Are you referring to the Brentford that are in the Championship? The ones that have never been in the Premier League? That Brentford? Yes, the Brentford who haven't finished lower than 11th since promoted from L1, with 2 failed playoffs. Another chance to go up this year on a sub-£20m budget. Imagine being able to spend £10m more just on the first team. 32 minutes ago, BaaLocks said: Burnley have shown that you don't need to spend hundreds of millions to stay up. As we'd have a bigger budget than them, we'd be able to invest more into the playing staff and push on more than them without the owner spending any of his own money. We'd have a bigger budget than Burnley? You certain of that? Based on what inside information exactly - the fact that Charlie George once played for us? Look, I admire your optimism and your belief - I'd love for every word to be right. Bump it when I'm wrong and I will happily eat humble pie by the bucket load. Until then, I don't think I've got anything more to add on the topic. Yes. That's how PL TV money works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheresOnlyWanChope Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 On 09/03/2021 at 20:49, BaaLocks said: To clarify, I'm not happy staying down - all of the above is very attractive to me. But it's not the scenario I either laid out or that I think is realistic. I simply don't get this belief that because we won the league 50 years ago somehow that means that if only we get a couple of things right it can all be again. You're right, it's not impossible but besides Wolves, Southampton, maybe Burnley, there's not a club that has managed to hang on for more than a few seasons. I'd take the ride, I'd enjoy it, but it would be an extreme long shot to turn it into anything sustainable and so - if this was a poker hand - you would be a lunatic to go all in. Some think it's our destiny, our right and all we have to do is buy a couple of strikers and the gates will open. As for Wolves, sorry but they are definitely historically a bigger club than Derby County. It's OK, again, no sleep to lose over it. Champions three times, runners up six times, FA Cup winners four times, League Cup twice, UEFA Cup Finalists, Charity Shield four times. And they won the Texaco Cup before we did..... Not sure if Wolves are historically bigger, possibly so, but definitely more successful. Size and success might have some link but surely size is on fan base size (easiest way to measure) and profile of the club. They are definitely bigger now, their profile is bigger than Derby’s. Same with Leicester and a lot of top flight clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reggie Greenwood Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 16 minutes ago, TheresOnlyWanChope said: Not sure if Wolves are historically bigger, possibly so, but definitely more successful. Size and success might have some link but surely size is on fan base size (easiest way to measure) and profile of the club. They are definitely bigger now, their profile is bigger than Derby’s. Same with Leicester and a lot of top flight clubs. Until they get relegated again , all depends on which time frame you want to look at. Wolves Newcastle United and Chelsea all getting under 10k crowds in the 1980’s. DCFC included in that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheresOnlyWanChope Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 4 minutes ago, Reggie Greenwood said: Until they get relegated again , all depends on which time frame you want to look at. Wolves Newcastle United and Chelsea all getting under 10k crowds in the 1980’s. DCFC included in that Interesting, although I think most clubs had lower attendance at this time? I would say those figures would be anomalies in history though, and Chelsea at least since the 90s have been averaging 25/30,000 plus every year. Same with Newcastle. I think trophies distorts the picture of size more than profile/attendances - eg Blackburn and Forest are not bigger clubs than West Ham. But agreed, time frame makes it an interesting discussion. It’s all about perceptions I guess. If Newcastle and Chelsea both got relegated now, they would have higher attendances than every other club though in the second tier though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 11 minutes ago, Reggie Greenwood said: Until they get relegated again , all depends on which time frame you want to look at. Wolves Newcastle United and Chelsea all getting under 10k crowds in the 1980’s. DCFC included in that Is this the Newcastle United who have the most fanatical fans in England, That follow their club through thick and thin...yes I remember those days...Geordies you've got to love em ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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