Time to take stock ..

[Ram8]

Time to take stock, and look back at what really went wrong over the season, whilst recognising that the past month has been an exciting roller coaster ride, albeit one destined to fail given the flimsy foundation of defensive ‘percentage’ football pursued under the present manager ..

But first of all, sympathy for those of Derby’s players (not all of them, a few failed to produce on the two nights) who gave everything for the cause, and over-achieved during the season, you are not to blame ..

You only have to look at two of Fulhams’ players to see what has gone wrong with Derby’s season .. 

Cairney: a wonderful, intelligent, skilful midfield general who dictates the pulse of the game from all areas of the pitch ..

Mitrovic: a strong, ‘hold the ball up and bring the midfield into play’ striker, also possessing the ability to turn his marker and score ..

We didn’t have either of those elements to our game, the players at our disposal for those positions being woefully inadequate ..

HOWEVER, AT THE START OF THE SEASON WE DID !! 

For our mobile, skilful midfielder we had Will Hughes (who I don’t think would have left so quickly if it hadn’t been blatantly obvious Rowett didn’t rate him) ..

And for our centre forward we had Chris Martin (a striker adept at providing for others as well as scoring himself), yet another valuable asset that Rowett didn’t rate . With those two in place we could have played Fulham at their own game, on the front foot, not playing his dangerous, nervous counterattacking game ..

Yes, we were so near, even with our glaring shortcomings, but ask yourself, what would we have done in the Premiership under Gary’s sterile, unadventurous approach ? 

Of yesterday’s team I would only retain Carson, Davies and Huddlestone (the latter two short term only because of their age) ..

Wisdom is not good enough, in either a full back or wing back position .. 

Keogh has been a great servant, but is associated too closely with past failings .. . Forsyth has never been the same since his injury ..

Anya did well yesterday with crosses from the wing that neither Lawrence nor Weimann had been able to deliver when playing out wide, but doesn’t produce much else, or show enough consistency .. 

Johnson has done much in his last few games to suggest that he could possibly still be the player we paid big money for, but it would be a big risk on his (probably) big wages ..

Lawrence. despite many supporters believing that he will still ‘deliver’, has for me never shown an inkling of promise that he is capable of doing so; his decision making, and lack of ‘sure touch’ in the final third remaining consistently woeful and wasteful ..

Weimann, for all his much applauded hard work and running, has no end product whatsoever, and shows scant vision and awareness when in possession ..

Jerome has had a brief ‘purple patch’ of goals, but I don’t believe he can sustain that long term .. 

Vydra is a difficult one, yes obviously he scores goals, but contributes little else, and I would sell him and use the cash to strengthen if the chairman would sanction that ..

Thorne, for all that he has been disappointing since coming back from his serious injuries, I would take another gamble on after a close season of recovery, as he was so very good before his bad luck took its toll .. 

Nugent, Olsson, Pearce, Baird, Ledley and Butterfield I don’t see any future in keeping ..

Hanson may be worth retaining as a bench player, with possibly a future as a holding midfielder after Huddlestone has retired .. 

Bryson I think may be past his best, given that his pace was his major asset ..

Winnall, the jury is out, so maybe give him a chance to prove himself after his recovery from injury .. 

 .. and that leaves Chris Martin, who I would definitely retain as first choice striker, which I suppose isn’t going to happen if GR remains in charge ..

As for the Academy players, I would certainly utilise Elsnick in the first team, possibly Lowe and Thomas, and three or four of the others could come into contention too given Mel Morris’s statement that no further money will be spent on big name signings next season .. 

That must be the way forward, even if it takes another two or three seasons of consolidation, because we are not going to be playoff contenders for some time now, due primarily to this season’s short term tilt at ‘promotion without a (future) policy’ ! 

I am not happy that we didn’t make it through the playoffs, I am as ****** off as anyone else, and I would have been as pleased as anyone else if we had made it under Gary’s leadership, but I can’t be dishonest and say that I have been happy with his style of football, particularly since Fulham beat us by utilising the same style and philosophy that we were playing just a few short seasons ago .. this cannot be portrayed as progress, it’s a massive backward step and I worry for us next season !

[Sasha]

excellent. Particularly regarding Will. Left warming bench by GM, surprise ! asks to go.

[desirelines]

Will Hughes would add plenty to any squad, but I don't agree with you that Martin was our Mitrovic. He's nowhere as mobile, and the goals have dried up for CM in both of his loan moves and in between back at Derby. I think Martin's best days are sadly behind him. Sell him if we get a good offer. 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

23 minutes ago, Ram8 said:

Time to take stock, and look back at what really went wrong over the season, whilst recognising that the past month has been an exciting roller coaster ride, albeit one destined to fail given the flimsy foundation of defensive ‘percentage’ football pursued under the present manager ..

But first of all, sympathy for those of Derby’s players (not all of them, a few failed to produce on the two nights) who gave everything for the cause, and over-achieved during the season, you are not to blame ..

You only have to look at two of Fulhams’ players to see what has gone wrong with Derby’s season .. 

Cairney: a wonderful, intelligent, skilful midfield general who dictates the pulse of the game from all areas of the pitch ..

Mitrovic: a strong, ‘hold the ball up and bring the midfield into play’ striker, also possessing the ability to turn his marker and score ..

We didn’t have either of those elements to our game, the players at our disposal for those positions being woefully inadequate ..

HOWEVER, AT THE START OF THE SEASON WE DID !! 

For our mobile, skilful midfielder we had Will Hughes (who I don’t think would have left so quickly if it hadn’t been blatantly obvious Rowett didn’t rate him) ..

And for our centre forward we had Chris Martin (a striker adept at providing for others as well as scoring himself), yet another valuable asset that Rowett didn’t rate . With those two in place we could have played Fulham at their own game, on the front foot, not playing his dangerous, nervous counterattacking game ..

Yes, we were so near, even with our glaring shortcomings, but ask yourself, what would we have done in the Premiership under Gary’s sterile, unadventurous approach ? 

Of yesterday’s team I would only retain Carson, Davies and Huddlestone (the latter two short term only because of their age) ..

Wisdom is not good enough, in either a full back or wing back position .. 

Keogh has been a great servant, but is associated too closely with past failings .. . Forsyth has never been the same since his injury ..

Anya did well yesterday with crosses from the wing that neither Lawrence nor Weimann had been able to deliver when playing out wide, but doesn’t produce much else, or show enough consistency .. 

Johnson has done much in his last few games to suggest that he could possibly still be the player we paid big money for, but it would be a big risk on his (probably) big wages ..

Lawrence. despite many supporters believing that he will still ‘deliver’, has for me never shown an inkling of promise that he is capable of doing so; his decision making, and lack of ‘sure touch’ in the final third remaining consistently woeful and wasteful ..

Weimann, for all his much applauded hard work and running, has no end product whatsoever, and shows scant vision and awareness when in possession ..

Jerome has had a brief ‘purple patch’ of goals, but I don’t believe he can sustain that long term .. 

Vydra is a difficult one, yes obviously he scores goals, but contributes little else, and I would sell him and use the cash to strengthen if the chairman would sanction that ..

Thorne, for all that he has been disappointing since coming back from his serious injuries, I would take another gamble on after a close season of recovery, as he was so very good before his bad luck took its toll .. 

Nugent, Olsson, Pearce, Baird, Ledley and Butterfield I don’t see any future in keeping ..

Hanson may be worth retaining as a bench player, with possibly a future as a holding midfielder after Huddlestone has retired .. 

Bryson I think may be past his best, given that his pace was his major asset ..

Winnall, the jury is out, so maybe give him a chance to prove himself after his recovery from injury .. 

 .. and that leaves Chris Martin, who I would definitely retain as first choice striker, which I suppose isn’t going to happen if GR remains in charge ..

As for the Academy players, I would certainly utilise Elsnick in the first team, possibly Lowe and Thomas, and three or four of the others could come into contention too given Mel Morris’s statement that no further money will be spent on big name signings next season .. 

That must be the way forward, even if it takes another two or three seasons of consolidation, because we are not going to be playoff contenders for some time now, due primarily to this season’s short term tilt at ‘promotion without a (future) policy’ ! 

I am not happy that we didn’t make it through the playoffs, I am as ****** off as anyone else, and I would have been as pleased as anyone else if we had made it under Gary’s leadership, but I can’t be dishonest and say that I have been happy with his style of football, particularly since Fulham beat us by utilising the same style and philosophy that we were playing just a few short seasons ago .. this cannot be portrayed as progress, it’s a massive backward step and I worry for us next season !

Irrespective of whether you like the type of football Rowett advocates or not I think you may be fundamentally misunderstanding the way its supposed to work. If a team plays fast counter-attacking football what use is a centre forward who can "hold the ball up". You need your centre forward to be a fast mobile playing off the defenders shoulder type of player (Jerome). By holding the ball up you are giving the opposition the opportunity to get into shape and re-group.  This is why the  Chris Martins or the Mitrovics of this world would not benefit Rowetts style of play. Cairney I agree is a lovely midfield player who I suspect could play well to whatever orders he is given but lets not confuse Rowetts preferred style of play by discussing certain players who have demonstrated skills that would not fit the bill.

As I have said on another thread for me its a case of Gary trying to implement his style with, to a degree, what he had and what he could afford to bring in. It does worry me that the critical part of his system relies on a fast mobile and extremely skilful front four. It is a very demanding role. The type of players he needs are not easy to find in the championship even with big money. Without big money I don't know how we improve on what we have (seems impossible to me) but we do need to improve or we are in for an extended spell of mediocrity.

So assuming Mel is happy with Gary's fiscal approach (Mel doesn't want to keep forking out £8-10m per year)...........Is it better players needed or a complete change of philosophy needed? Are either possible? That I think is the debate.

[EnigmaRam]

1 hour ago, Ram8 said:

Time to take stock, and look back at what really went wrong over the season, whilst recognising that the past month has been an exciting roller coaster ride, albeit one destined to fail given the flimsy foundation of defensive ‘percentage’ football pursued under the present manager ..

But first of all, sympathy for those of Derby’s players (not all of them, a few failed to produce on the two nights) who gave everything for the cause, and over-achieved during the season, you are not to blame ..

You only have to look at two of Fulhams’ players to see what has gone wrong with Derby’s season .. 

Cairney: a wonderful, intelligent, skilful midfield general who dictates the pulse of the game from all areas of the pitch ..

Mitrovic: a strong, ‘hold the ball up and bring the midfield into play’ striker, also possessing the ability to turn his marker and score ..

We didn’t have either of those elements to our game, the players at our disposal for those positions being woefully inadequate ..

HOWEVER, AT THE START OF THE SEASON WE DID !! 

For our mobile, skilful midfielder we had Will Hughes (who I don’t think would have left so quickly if it hadn’t been blatantly obvious Rowett didn’t rate him) ..

And for our centre forward we had Chris Martin (a striker adept at providing for others as well as scoring himself), yet another valuable asset that Rowett didn’t rate . With those two in place we could have played Fulham at their own game, on the front foot, not playing his dangerous, nervous counterattacking game ..

Yes, we were so near, even with our glaring shortcomings, but ask yourself, what would we have done in the Premiership under Gary’s sterile, unadventurous approach ? 

Of yesterday’s team I would only retain Carson, Davies and Huddlestone (the latter two short term only because of their age) ..

Wisdom is not good enough, in either a full back or wing back position .. 

Keogh has been a great servant, but is associated too closely with past failings .. . Forsyth has never been the same since his injury ..

Anya did well yesterday with crosses from the wing that neither Lawrence nor Weimann had been able to deliver when playing out wide, but doesn’t produce much else, or show enough consistency .. 

Johnson has done much in his last few games to suggest that he could possibly still be the player we paid big money for, but it would be a big risk on his (probably) big wages ..

Lawrence. despite many supporters believing that he will still ‘deliver’, has for me never shown an inkling of promise that he is capable of doing so; his decision making, and lack of ‘sure touch’ in the final third remaining consistently woeful and wasteful ..

Weimann, for all his much applauded hard work and running, has no end product whatsoever, and shows scant vision and awareness when in possession ..

Jerome has had a brief ‘purple patch’ of goals, but I don’t believe he can sustain that long term .. 

Vydra is a difficult one, yes obviously he scores goals, but contributes little else, and I would sell him and use the cash to strengthen if the chairman would sanction that ..

Thorne, for all that he has been disappointing since coming back from his serious injuries, I would take another gamble on after a close season of recovery, as he was so very good before his bad luck took its toll .. 

Nugent, Olsson, Pearce, Baird, Ledley and Butterfield I don’t see any future in keeping ..

Hanson may be worth retaining as a bench player, with possibly a future as a holding midfielder after Huddlestone has retired .. 

Bryson I think may be past his best, given that his pace was his major asset ..

Winnall, the jury is out, so maybe give him a chance to prove himself after his recovery from injury .. 

 .. and that leaves Chris Martin, who I would definitely retain as first choice striker, which I suppose isn’t going to happen if GR remains in charge ..

As for the Academy players, I would certainly utilise Elsnick in the first team, possibly Lowe and Thomas, and three or four of the others could come into contention too given Mel Morris’s statement that no further money will be spent on big name signings next season .. 

That must be the way forward, even if it takes another two or three seasons of consolidation, because we are not going to be playoff contenders for some time now, due primarily to this season’s short term tilt at ‘promotion without a (future) policy’ ! 

I am not happy that we didn’t make it through the playoffs, I am as ****** off as anyone else, and I would have been as pleased as anyone else if we had made it under Gary’s leadership, but I can’t be dishonest and say that I have been happy with his style of football, particularly since Fulham beat us by utilising the same style and philosophy that we were playing just a few short seasons ago .. this cannot be portrayed as progress, it’s a massive backward step and I worry for us next season !

Pretty doomed aren't we. Turn off the floodlights and lock the door on pride park. Life as we know it is over!!

[IlsonDerby]

Feeling surprisingly optimistic. 

For Birmingham with very little money he managed to sign Che Adams/Maghoma etc and they looked bloody good playing off Donaldson (who is a worse version of Jerome).

Now I've been vocal of how poor some of the performances have been and he isn't my first choice but he's the likely choice so I'll have to back him. I think he gambled this year with older players knowing that it was his last roll of the dice before having to cut costs properly. So I'm looking forward to a younger side with more energy next season that can play the game he wants (high intensity). 

 

Obviously we as fans have to be better. It's fine groaning at a misplaced pass or a poor decision from a seasoned pro but that cannot happen with younger players. We'll break them. We've wanted more youth for a while and when we get it, we need to be sensible in our support. 

[LeedsCityRam]

3 hours ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

As I have said on another thread for me its a case of Gary trying to implement his style with, to a degree, what he had and what he could afford to bring in. It does worry me that the critical part of his system relies on a fast mobile and extremely skilful front four. It is a very demanding role. The type of players he needs are not easy to find in the championship even with big money. Without big money I don't know how we improve on what we have (seems impossible to me) but we do need to improve or we are in for an extended spell of mediocrity.

So assuming Mel is happy with Gary's fiscal approach (Mel doesn't want to keep forking out £8-10m per year)...........Is it better players needed or a complete change of philosophy needed? Are either possible? That I think is the debate.

Good post but slightly disagree with the bit in bold. We definitely need mobile players up top but don't think extreme skill is necessarily an issue because of the amount of space they'd get as counter attacking forwards. its not like they'd have to unpick a defence - just move into space & assess correct options (often with limited pressure on the ball)

The key for me is decision making & ability to be clinical - could argue that depends as much on the character of the player as the physical side. I also don't think it calls for big money to be spent - Jamie Vardy is a very over-used example of a lower division player made good but his style (quick, mobile, clinical, nasty streak) is exactly the mould we need to be looking for & I suspect there are more like him out there at bargain prices. By contrast, I think we would need to spend money to move to a more possession based team where we'd need technically adept players able to control a game & dissect organised defences.

Of our current front 3, Weimann (for all his hard work) doesn't have the killer instinct & Lawrence, I believe, is trying too hard. Once those 2 positions sync better with Jerome, we will be very dangerous - particularly with our solid defence.

[DontTrustTheDevilInside]

Did we honestly just compare Martin past his best to mitrovic who is approaching his prime?

what everyone failed to notice is mitrovic wasn’t one dimensional because he is that much better of a player. Just possibly if rumours are to be believed a worse attitude.

he can hold the ball up, but he is also very capable with the ball at his feet and not exactly lacking when it comes to pace to get behind.

where mitrovic Made the difference was not formation or tactics it was individual ability. He came deeper and deeper until Davies could no longer screen his passes and dominate him 1 to 1. He was unpredictable, when he wanted to go into the channels he did and was a threat, when he wanted the ball to feet he did and was a threat, when he wanted to go into the box as a target he did and was a threat and when he wanted to come deep he did and was a threat. 

There wont be many mitrovics in the championship but Martin in his prime (which he definitely isn’t any more) isn’t what I described. A wonderful finisher, a capable player at holding the ball up but unpredictable he will never be!

[Owd miner]

Martin wor a goalhanger ... no skill  plus he cun’t keep up on his feet fer five mins . 

[BramcoteRam84]

12 hours ago, Ram8 said:

Time to take stock, and look back at what really went wrong over the season, whilst recognising that the past month has been an exciting roller coaster ride, albeit one destined to fail given the flimsy foundation of defensive ‘percentage’ football pursued under the present manager ..

But first of all, sympathy for those of Derby’s players (not all of them, a few failed to produce on the two nights) who gave everything for the cause, and over-achieved during the season, you are not to blame ..

You only have to look at two of Fulhams’ players to see what has gone wrong with Derby’s season .. 

Cairney: a wonderful, intelligent, skilful midfield general who dictates the pulse of the game from all areas of the pitch ..

Mitrovic: a strong, ‘hold the ball up and bring the midfield into play’ striker, also possessing the ability to turn his marker and score ..

We didn’t have either of those elements to our game, the players at our disposal for those positions being woefully inadequate ..

HOWEVER, AT THE START OF THE SEASON WE DID !! 

For our mobile, skilful midfielder we had Will Hughes (who I don’t think would have left so quickly if it hadn’t been blatantly obvious Rowett didn’t rate him) ..

And for our centre forward we had Chris Martin (a striker adept at providing for others as well as scoring himself), yet another valuable asset that Rowett didn’t rate . With those two in place we could have played Fulham at their own game, on the front foot, not playing his dangerous, nervous counterattacking game ..

Yes, we were so near, even with our glaring shortcomings, but ask yourself, what would we have done in the Premiership under Gary’s sterile, unadventurous approach ? 

Of yesterday’s team I would only retain Carson, Davies and Huddlestone (the latter two short term only because of their age) ..

Wisdom is not good enough, in either a full back or wing back position .. 

Keogh has been a great servant, but is associated too closely with past failings .. . Forsyth has never been the same since his injury ..

Anya did well yesterday with crosses from the wing that neither Lawrence nor Weimann had been able to deliver when playing out wide, but doesn’t produce much else, or show enough consistency .. 

Johnson has done much in his last few games to suggest that he could possibly still be the player we paid big money for, but it would be a big risk on his (probably) big wages ..

Lawrence. despite many supporters believing that he will still ‘deliver’, has for me never shown an inkling of promise that he is capable of doing so; his decision making, and lack of ‘sure touch’ in the final third remaining consistently woeful and wasteful ..

Weimann, for all his much applauded hard work and running, has no end product whatsoever, and shows scant vision and awareness when in possession ..

Jerome has had a brief ‘purple patch’ of goals, but I don’t believe he can sustain that long term .. 

Vydra is a difficult one, yes obviously he scores goals, but contributes little else, and I would sell him and use the cash to strengthen if the chairman would sanction that ..

Thorne, for all that he has been disappointing since coming back from his serious injuries, I would take another gamble on after a close season of recovery, as he was so very good before his bad luck took its toll .. 

Nugent, Olsson, Pearce, Baird, Ledley and Butterfield I don’t see any future in keeping ..

Hanson may be worth retaining as a bench player, with possibly a future as a holding midfielder after Huddlestone has retired .. 

Bryson I think may be past his best, given that his pace was his major asset ..

Winnall, the jury is out, so maybe give him a chance to prove himself after his recovery from injury .. 

 .. and that leaves Chris Martin, who I would definitely retain as first choice striker, which I suppose isn’t going to happen if GR remains in charge ..

As for the Academy players, I would certainly utilise Elsnick in the first team, possibly Lowe and Thomas, and three or four of the others could come into contention too given Mel Morris’s statement that no further money will be spent on big name signings next season .. 

That must be the way forward, even if it takes another two or three seasons of consolidation, because we are not going to be playoff contenders for some time now, due primarily to this season’s short term tilt at ‘promotion without a (future) policy’ ! 

I am not happy that we didn’t make it through the playoffs, I am as ****** off as anyone else, and I would have been as pleased as anyone else if we had made it under Gary’s leadership, but I can’t be dishonest and say that I have been happy with his style of football, particularly since Fulham beat us by utilising the same style and philosophy that we were playing just a few short seasons ago .. this cannot be portrayed as progress, it’s a massive backward step and I worry for us next season !

Another post blaming Rowett for selling Hughes!!

Look at last year’s finances, we sold him to comply with FFP because most of the other players he inherited are crap and he can’t move them on!

And the football was worst before he came!! We’ve not played like Mac 1 since Mac 1 again influenced by poor signings, signings not made by Rowett.

Dont let the facts get in the way of a convenient argument

[ariotofmyown]

54 minutes ago, Owd miner said:

Martin wor a goalhanger ... no skill  plus he cun’t keep up on his feet fer five mins . 

Very harsh to call him a cu...oh, my mistake.

[ram1964]

12 hours ago, EnigmaRam said:

Pretty doomed aren't we. Turn off the floodlights and lock the door on pride park. Life as we know it is over!!

For us oldies it's been over for over 40 years

?

[G-Ram]

Mitrovic is different class he’s a premier league striker playing in the championship. He’s too good for this division & miles better than anything we have upfront