MuespachRam Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 22 hours ago, Bris Vegas said: Fulham are better than Cardiff by far. Cardiff may have finished above them over 46 games, but now they both start from zero, I’m totally confident Fulham are better and will finish above Cardiff next season. Fulham May well indeed finished above them next season but this season Cardiff were the better team. The league doesn’t lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 37 minutes ago, MuespachRam said: Fulham May well indeed finished above them next season but this season Cardiff were the better team. The league doesn’t lie. The league measures results, not performances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 26 minutes ago, cannable said: The league measures results, not performances Or the overall quality of the squad, or squad potential. All it measures, like you say, is results over a set number of fixtures. Fulham acquired more points, better results and better performances from the turn of the new year onwards. I think they'll be fine in the Premier League. Cardiff, on the other hand, are in for a real battle I'd imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 On 26 May 2018 at 18:56, Wolfie20 said: The look on John Terrys' face at the final whistle was priceless. Hey thats our future assistant manager you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuespachRam Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 1 hour ago, cannable said: The league measures results, not performances The best team always wins the league. The worst team always comes last. Cardiff were better than Fulham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 5 minutes ago, MuespachRam said: The best team always wins the league. The worst team always comes last. Cardiff were better than Fulham. Cardiff acquired more points than Fulham over 46 games. That's all it measures. Fulham are a better team than Cardiff. Saying otherwise is just daft when all the evidence points towards Fulham being better. From Christmas last year onwards, Fulham picked up 12 more points than Cardiff. They head into the PL as the better team, quite clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 18 minutes ago, MuespachRam said: The best team always wins the league. The worst team always comes last. Cardiff were better than Fulham. But if the last day had gone Fulham’s way the they would have been better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 41 minutes ago, MuespachRam said: The best team always wins the league. The worst team always comes last. Cardiff were better than Fulham. How many games does a league season require before it attains this level of Platonic perfection? Is a Champions League group stage sufficient? Each team plays the others twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 1 hour ago, cannable said: But if the last day had gone Fulham’s way the they would have been better? I adhere to the argument that Fulham have scored more points since Christmas, and are therefore, hear and now, the better team (also, they were able to beat us this season on secarlo occasions, and Cardiff weren’t). But, by that argument you could say, where do you draw the line? Cardiff got one more point than Fulham on the last day of the season, so if you drew the line at the day before the end of the season, then Cardiff are the better team. You cant just arbitrarily draw a line at a point that makes Fulham the better team. And does it really mater anyway. Right here and now, Fulham might beat cardiff, but there’s a whole transfer window to go between now and the next season starting. So who the duck knows who will be better come the start of the new season?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuespachRam Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 2 hours ago, cannable said: But if the last day had gone Fulham’s way the they would have been better? Yes. That is what the league is all about...but they got beaten by a pathetic Birmingham team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuespachRam Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 1 hour ago, Highgate said: How many games does a league season require before it attains this level of Platonic perfection? Is a Champions League group stage sufficient? Each team plays the others twice. There has actually been some nerdy group that worked it out and for it to be absolutely perfect then the league would have to be 35 years long....but 40+ games is what we have and th best team finishes top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuespachRam Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 4 hours ago, cannable said: The league measures results, not performances Performances don’t matter at all, you get zero points for performances....results are what matters. The aim of the game is to get as many points as possible and Cardiff got more than Fulham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, MuespachRam said: There has actually been some nerdy group that worked it out and for it to be absolutely perfect then the league would have to be 35 years long....but 40+ games is what we have and th best team finishes top. so 35 years or 40 games ? Random chance plays a huge chance in all sport, so you can never expect a league to perfectly reflect the quality of the teams. Leagues tables are just the best approximation we have. Also saying a team was better over the course of a season is not the same as saying they are the better team at the end of the season. One of the teams may have been improving as the season wore on, such as Fulham in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuespachRam Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 Just now, Highgate said: so 35 years or 40 games ? Random chance plays a huge chance in all sport, so you can never expect a league to perfectly reflect the quality of the teams. Leagues tables are just the best approximation we have. Also saying a team was better over the course of a season is not the same as saying they are the better team at the end of the season. One of the teams may have been improving as the season wore on, such as Fulham in this case. The league table is what we have....the season that has just finished Wolves were the best team in the league and Cardiff were the second best. You can’t draw a line saying “from Christmas fulham were better” because he season doesn’t start in December. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 6 minutes ago, MuespachRam said: The league table is what we have....the season that has just finished Wolves were the best team in the league and Cardiff were the second best. You can’t draw a line saying “from Christmas fulham were better” because he season doesn’t start in December. But you can say ‘right now, at this moment in time, Fulham are better.’ Not saying that would be right amor not, it’s arguable, and probably completely unprovable. But you can say it. Personally, I believe that statement is true, but there is no definitive metric like a league table to prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 1 hour ago, TigerTedd said: I adhere to the argument that Fulham have scored more points since Christmas, and are therefore, hear and now, the better team (also, they were able to beat us this season on secarlo occasions, and Cardiff weren’t). But, by that argument you could say, where do you draw the line? Cardiff got one more point than Fulham on the last day of the season, so if you drew the line at the day before the end of the season, then Cardiff are the better team. You cant just arbitrarily draw a line at a point that makes Fulham the better team. And does it really mater anyway. Right here and now, Fulham might beat cardiff, but there’s a whole transfer window to go between now and the next season starting. So who the duck knows who will be better come the start of the new season?! I agree in that it gets a little silly to start marking certain points in thr season onwards to try to justify who is better. I simply use logic to determine who is better, and having watched both teams, it’s not even a close call. Fulham all day long. I just don’t think league positioning is a true reflection. Leicester weren’t the 16th best team in the PL, to the best team, back to the 13th best team in a matter of three seasons. Wes Morgan suddenly didn’t go from like the 30th best CB, to the best CB, and back to 30th again. Leicester didn’t start the following season as favourites for the title, because they weren’t the best team in the league, evidently. Right now I reckon odds of Fulham staying up are much shorter than that of Cardiff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 1 hour ago, MuespachRam said: The league table is what we have....the season that has just finished Wolves were the best team in the league and Cardiff were the second best. You can’t draw a line saying “from Christmas fulham were better” because he season doesn’t start in December. Yeah but it's just an approximation of the teams quality. A good one over a 46 game season, I'll grant you, but an approximation nonetheless. it doesn't tell you who has been lucky and who has been unlucky. for example. And no, there is no reason that luck should balance out over the course of a season. Things are more complicated than just believing absolutely that league position precisely reflects a teams quality. For example, if a team was missing their star player through injury for most of the season, does their league position reflect their overall quality? Or if you believe that Fulham were better with Mitrovic than without him, don't you then have to consider the possibility that Fulham with Mitrovic may be better than Cardiff too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 If you’re going on who is the better team right now and ignoring the table, it needs to be taken into account that Fulham no longer have Mitrovic, Norwood, Targett, Kalas, Piazon and Ojo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angieram Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 1 hour ago, David said: If you’re going on who is the better team right now and ignoring the table, it needs to be taken into account that Fulham no longer have Mitrovic, Norwood, Targett, Kalas, Piazon and Ojo. I wonder how many of them they will try and sign now they're up? Or if they'll go for better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 1 hour ago, David said: If you’re going on who is the better team right now and ignoring the table, it needs to be taken into account that Fulham no longer have Mitrovic, Norwood, Targett, Kalas, Piazon and Ojo. Does suggest that the loan system needs to be addressed - you could argue that Mitrovic was the reason Fulham went on the long unbeaten run - he's quite clearly a class above Championship level - same with a number of the Wolves players. I'd rather limit teams to 2 or 3 loans, but make the loan system more flexible so the loans can be swapped around and loanees replaced (perhaps every 3 months). It would seem a fairer system than a club being promoted with half their team made up of loans.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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