Bad summer window

[dajstrawb]

19 hours ago, lioncoeur said:

He didn't get rid of the deadwood.

Quite the opposite, in fact 

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, Premier ram said:

...the club is rebuilding after 4 years of failure , patience and understanding wouldnt go amiss with a few of you

GR said he was wanting Top 2 finish. Are Davies & Huddz gonna be here for the finished build then?!

[tomsdubs]

2 hours ago, SilentRam said:

Where did I say that? I said those two from Birmingham we were after aren't that great. I said there are better central midfielders out there. And added our scouting was/is dire.

Our scouting is about on par for the division to be honest and it's easy to get carried away thinking everyone else is getting amazing deals when you don't look at the full picture. Kieftenbeld has a 3-0 smashing of us under his belt and offers exactly what we don't have. No transfer is a certain winner, it's easy to say oh we should be looking here, signing this guy etc. Hindsight in the transfer market is easy. Reports said Kieftenbeld was distraught at the transfer failing and desperately wanted to come here and play, not for the cash like some of the other muppets we've signed. But who knows, transfers I thought were good turned out s****. I didn't think Huddlestone was the answer and every game that passes it only reinforces my view.

Teams are bypassing us with average players, Derby seem to be obsessed that the players we sign are obviously a cut above everyone else. The fact is the teams that are organised and work hard get the results in this league. We don't work hard, our CMs are all over the show and other teams with players we think aren't good enough for DCFC are outclassing us. You have to earn the right to play the nice stuff in this division and we just don't do that.

To be successful in life you've gotta want it. IMO we have too many players that seem feel like they've already made it. Most teams we play want it more than us, you can see it clearly on the pitch.

[DontTrustTheDevilInside]

11 hours ago, PistoldPete2 said:

The league table says different atm. And if wisdom and Davies have improved us at the back how come we are leaking so many goals? And how come wisdom wasnt in the team if he is so good? And the possession stats suggest we are weaker in midfield too. 

I havent seen seen enough of Davies yet, but my worry is he's past it. Lawrence looked promising against hull. its early days but the window was very frustrating for the players we let go and the players we didn't get. 

Sound like a broke record I know but there's only been one consistent figure in this period of failure and bottling it (where lack of leadership has been on the lips of many fans)

4 hours ago, RamNut said:

Maybe we could learn lessons from other clubs in terms of recruitment and tactics.

i'm interested to see how barnsley progress. Not least because they signed two players i suggested for us - mccarthy and lindsay.

Mccarthy played well v us,

but i was also impressed by Potts (signed from blackpool), and Pinnock (non-league?) 

Our recruitment seems to be a bit unimaginative in comparison.

Completely agree here, said Maddison from Peterborough could be an absolute game changing steal at 1mill as per their comments

4 hours ago, Inglorius said:

It's debatable what level of culpability Rowett had for the above. We obviously were very cautious in our dealings due to financial constraints and I don't think any other football manager would have been able to shift the deadwood you allude to.

Disagree completely here but you need someone designated for this not a side task of a manager, DoF or similar. Look at what wolves achieved bringing players in and out... could we have pulled off those ins? We couldn't shift on Bryson and butterfield, proven championship midfielders, they shifted bodvarsson who has an appalling year and was unproven before that. It's about who's got the most contacts and so far we haven't improved on clough with his former burton Albion phone book

[DontTrustTheDevilInside]

I also agree with comment that like for like changes have generally been improvements on paper (wisdom for Christie/Lawrence for ince) but failed to deal with so many underlying issues. Lack of box to box battler (with physical presence), lack of true target man (more than 6 ft), lack of playmaker, lack of pacey striker who can hold up in the channels, lack of 2nd winger (ince and Lawrence are 1st choice- but marked out of a game because other side is weak and lacks threat), failure to remove the lack of leadership at the back (too many proven cbs now taking the blame for someone who hadn't done more than flounder in an awful Coventry team), lack of quality crosser/set piece taker - (will have to wait to see with vydra and Lawrence)

[europia]

Yes, it certainly was well below most fans expectations. Huddlestone & Davis probably too old and Lawrence doesn't look the top quality replacement for Ince that we were promised. No creativity or energy in our midfield. 

[SilentRam]

2 hours ago, tomsdubs said:

Our scouting is about on par for the division to be honest and it's easy to get carried away thinking everyone else is getting amazing deals when you don't look at the full picture. Kieftenbeld has a 3-0 smashing of us under his belt and offers exactly what we don't have. No transfer is a certain winner, it's easy to say oh we should be looking here, signing this guy etc. Hindsight in the transfer market is easy. Reports said Kieftenbeld was distraught at the transfer failing and desperately wanted to come here and play, not for the cash like some of the other muppets we've signed. But who knows, transfers I thought were good turned out s****. I didn't think Huddlestone was the answer and every game that passes it only reinforces my view.

Teams are bypassing us with average players, Derby seem to be obsessed that the players we sign are obviously a cut above everyone else. The fact is the teams that are organised and work hard get the results in this league. We don't work hard, our CMs are all over the show and other teams with players we think aren't good enough for DCFC are outclassing us. You have to earn the right to play the nice stuff in this division and we just don't do that.

To be successful in life you've gotta want it. IMO we have too many players that seem feel like they've already made it. Most teams we play want it more than us, you can see it clearly on the pitch.

I do not disagree with what you are saying in terms of the attitude and mindset of some of the current players. However I would disagree with our scouting being on far for the division. I have said this about our scouting in the past and it is not based purely on this window. I can name you many Championship teams that have far better scouting than us with way less resources. To my knowledge Steve McLaren's son Joe McClaren is still our Chief Scout. You can look him up on LinkedIn and see his resume. I would rather have someone older with excellent connections across Europe who can find the next three Kieftenbelds

[Jack Willow]

4 hours ago, dajstrawb said:

Quite the opposite, in fact 

The job isn't finished yet, it will most likely be finished next summer. Hopefully with shipping out the rest of the deadwood.

[RoyMac5]

8 hours ago, lioncoeur said:

The job isn't finished yet, it will most likely be finished next summer. Hopefully with shipping out the rest of the deadwood.

The deadwood will have changed by then to other squad members - don't you get it? What good is a manager who can't make a team from his squad!

[Jack Willow]

41 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

The deadwood will have changed by then to other squad members - don't you get it? What good is a manager who can't make a team from his squad!

Yeah, I am getting it. Modern football is constantly changing and evolving.

The tactics (4-3-3) which worked efficiently 3-4 years ago and were producing positive results for Derby; aren't good any more. The players who were involved in those days aren't fulfilling tactical tasks which Gary asks and expects from them nowadays (pressing the ball, defending/tackling, tracking back).

A good clean out and a big restructuring of the squad is needed.

Anyway the majority of the players weren't Gary's signings, therefore we can't speak about his players and his squad.

They are just players who he inherited and who he's forced to use, with or without his will.

 

[RoyMac5]

34 minutes ago, lioncoeur said:

A good clean out and a big restructuring of the squad is needed.

Anyway the majority of the players weren't Gary's signings, therefore we can't speak about his players and his squad.

They are just players who he inherited and who he's forced to use, with or without his will.

Well he had opportunity to not just buy in ie Wisdom, Davies, Huddlestone and Lawrence. But loan in Winnall. Plus he could have sold Martin on TDD but didn't so that's 6 certains in the squad. He made Keogh his captain and certainly you couldn't argue with Carson. He plays Vydra and Nugent before 'his choices' Winnall and Martin. So I would suggest there aren't many in the current 18 who couldn't be said to be Rowetts players.

[CornwallRam]

23 hours ago, GenBr said:

Thanks. Well that makes it sound like we have no scouting network abroad whatsoever if all we have is a couple of contacts that Rowett brought with him. It takes time to build a good scouting network, but from the sounds of that it doesn't even sound like we have laid the foundations. 

Just be patient - we've only had 133 years to develop one. 

[Jack Willow]

Just now, RoyMac5 said:

Well he had opportunity to not just buy in ie Wisdom, Davies, Huddlestone and Lawrence. But loan in Winnall. Plus he could have sold Martin on TDD but didn't so that's 6 certains in the squad. He made Keogh his captain and certainly you couldn't argue with Carson. He plays Vydra and Nugent before 'his choices' Winnall and Martin. So I would suggest there aren't many in the current 18 who couldn't be said to be Rowetts players.

I am almost convinced that Gary really wanted to sell C. Martin, but the offer which he received from Wolves the last day of a transfer window wasn't sufficient enough for him to raise needed financial funds.

A. Wisdom is still relatively young player with a real possibility to become even better.

T. Lawrence is an international player; who's playing for Wales, which is definitely a positive sign. His market value will only grow.

T. Huddlestone and C. Davies are not exactly in the Spring of their careers, but they still represent certain added value to the squad.

S. Winnall is only on loan and we don't know really what's going to happen with him afterwards.

[RoyMac5]

12 minutes ago, lioncoeur said:

I am almost convinced that Gary really wanted to sell C. Martin, but the offer which he received from Wolves the last day of a transfer window wasn't sufficient enough for him to raise needed financial funds...

Of course you are almost convinced. However the choice was Gary's and he kept Martin. As for the rest of my post I repeat, there is enough of the squad now for it to be called Rowetts players. He also moved players out, so overall there is a reasonable difference from when he first took over - all this talk about needing so many more windows or needing to get rid of 'bad eggs', etc is just a smokescreen...

[CornwallRam]

I reckon that the window will prove to be disastrous. 

I'm not worried by any of the transfers out particularly. We needed the money and I don't think that Ince or Hughes would have been a good fit for Rowett's style. Bryson has been poor for years and Butterfield is slow in body and mind. Christie is probably the one we'll miss the most as it's always handy having some attacking intent at full back. Letting Elsnik go on loan with so few senior midfielders available was also questionable

The 'ins' themselves look a little patchy. I like Lawrence and think he'll be a big improvement on Ince. Winnall looks decent, but I don't see where he fits into the side. Wisdom is OK, but his lack of attacking intent makes us a little predictable on the right. Davies is an average player and very poor on the ball - amazingly, we're still missing Jake Buxton. Huddlestone is horrific signing. He has no defensive ability and the pace of an arthritic snail. He's also Ince like in his ability to compete in the air. Obviously, some of his passing is good, but his presence leaves such a big hole defensively that it's irrelevant. 

For me, the window has left us with an adequate defence - they're not the best, but if the rest of the team was functioning properly they'd be just about good enough to put us in the top 6. The attack is pretty good, although we'd be improved with a big, mobile striker. It looks like we're going to go with 4231, so our big issue is the 2 in midfield. That formation calls for two players who are, mobile, combative and have enough footballing intelligence to know when to hold and when to get forward. We currently have no players at the club who can do that - so, imho, we're screwed until January. 

The way I see it, if you could somehow teleport in Gemmill and Rioch in their prime to this side, we'd win the league. If we could get in DPFG and RVDL we'd be comfortably in the top six. As things stand, the gap in the centre of our team will make us lucky to be clear of the relegation scrap by the time Santa rolls up.

[superfit]

How many mangers get the opportunity to completely overhaul the entire squad before being criticised for poor performances?

I'm sure Rowett, like McClaren and Pearson before him, said to Mel at the interview that we have a talented squad and with few changes should be challenging for promotion.

Rowett said himself at the recent Q&A something along the lines of having had Birmingham in and around the play-offs in the past with little investment therefore he has no excuses with this squad. 

Or has he changed his mind over the last couple of weeks?

I don't have problem with giving Rowett more time, I don't like the constant changes, but at the very least lets see SOME progress!

I watched some of the Barnsley game against Villa at the weekend on Sky. Whilst Villa won 3-0 I thought Barnsley were excellent and very unlucky. The Barnsley team had ONE player over 25 and played some lovely football but were naive at the back and that cost them the game. In this instance the Barnsley manager should be given plenty of time (even if it means losing more games like this one) because it's work in progress and in a season or two they will have a very useful team. 

If Rowett was going down the same path, bringing in young hungry players that will get better, then no problem, give him as much time as he needs, as long as we see the beginnings of something. But that's not what is happening, we are rebuilding our team around 30  somethings in the twilight of their careers. 

Rowett does not seem to be building this team as one for the future but for the now. So should be judged accordingly. 

Karen Brady once said 'football fans will support you if they can see progress.' That's basically it, I don't mind losing, I don't mind supporting the team through thick and thin. All I ask for is some sign of progress.

Now breath.   

    

[sage]

On ‎17‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 06:29, G-Ram said:

I thought it was a good window

Wisdom is better that christie

Davies improves us at the back 

lawrence is potentially aa good if not better than ince 

huddlestone is better than hughes.

We have improved slightly & the above might take time to gel 

 

Slightly

Optimistic

Really?

Wisdom I agree with.

[tomsdubs]

11 hours ago, SilentRam said:

I do not disagree with what you are saying in terms of the attitude and mindset of some of the current players. However I would disagree with our scouting being on far for the division. I have said this about our scouting in the past and it is not based purely on this window. I can name you many Championship teams that have far better scouting than us with way less resources. To my knowledge Steve McLaren's son Joe McClaren is still our Chief Scout. You can look him up on LinkedIn and see his resume. I would rather have someone older with excellent connections across Europe who can find the next three Kieftenbelds

I don't disagree about Joe McClaren but then I don't know what the guys behind the scenes see. I imagine a close eye is kept on his performance. You seem to think just looking at Euro leagues and seeing these cheap options is easy but I don't think it is. Rowett said himself he has contacts in Germany that put players forwards to him and that's where Kieftenbeld came from. Derby fans have a tendency to grossly oversimplify and then contradict with solutions. My opinion is we need this season to be done so the contracts are up of the players we couldn't shift. We won't see Rowett's side until next season. I don't know what Joe McClaren's contacts are but you'd hope the club were on top of it in making sure he was giving us the optimal performance scout wise.

Then again is this a gross oversimplification of a type of scouting from a bygone era? Do scouts need contact networks anymore? I thought modern scouting is now done through data performance analysis and there aren't really such things as hidden gems anymore? I don't know, next Q&A someone should put it forward in more detail than previous.

[duncanjwitham]

The other thing we don't know about the scouting network, is whether their recommendations are actually being listened to. For all we know, we could have located 20 brilliant holding midfielders in Europe, but Rowett said no and just wanted to sign one of his Birmingham mates.  The whole process is a black box, and from outside we have no idea where the failures are occurring.